Baseline Questions for the 'sperts

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by cynyck


Check out the thread "How do you get "hundreds" of beakers per turn" about 15 to 20 down from the top. Solo posts a save showing over 1000 per turn with settled scientists. I did not post a save, but described a save with a city with 600 per turn and I had not settled any scientists.

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky


I had no idea it was even possible to get 1000+ beakers in a single city. I don't think I've even broke 500 yet. Maybe I should try a game like this and see what I can get. I imagine you would have to settle a ton of scientists (which I don't like doing).

I think someone on that thread suggested that the maximum possible from a great site with a "ton of scientists" settled was around 1800.

RJM

[Rancidlunchmeat]

The problem is with his statement 'I don't like to do that'.

So the question becomes how can you get hundreds of beakers per turn without settling your scientists because you want them to do other things?

[padillah]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
The problem is with his statement 'I don't like to do that'.

So the question becomes how can you get hundreds of beakers per turn without settling your scientists because you want them to do other things?

I guess my response to that would be "what other things?"

What else can you do with a GS that's worth doing more than settle and boost beakers?

A Golden Age? Not as worthwhile. Build an Academy? Only one per city. Build an academy in every city? Might be something to explore there.

If you don't like to settle them then what ARE you doing with them?

Tom P.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I generally use use most of my scientists to rush techs so that I can get key military units way ahead of anyone else. This usually allows a fairly easy domination victory and is how I usually win my games. I find the space race to be rather boring.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

As PP said... you use them to rush techs. Or you build a second or third academy, which add more beakers overall than you would by settling all those scientists in a single city.

[padillah]

Forgot about the tech thing.

I'm trying to decypher some idiots old ASP and my mind is somewhere else.

Tom P.

[rjmatsleepers]

You can get hundreds - let's say five hundred - of beakers without settling a single scientists. Oxford, Academy, library, university and observatory give you +225%. Let's assume a couple of specialist scientists with representation; 4 trade routes (with harbour) and bureaucracy + free religion.

10 cottages will give you 60 beakers; with the assorted other tiles that's 65 + 28 from trade routes = 93 which goes to 139 with bueaucracy + scientists makes 151. Bonuses bring that to 505 beakers per turn.

But, I think you're a lot better off settling your scientists rather than using them for techs or a GA. A settled scientist in the same city will give you approximately 30 beakers per turn. A technology discovery is about 1500 beakers. Break even point is about 50 turns.

RJM

[PaganPaulwhisky]

But, I think you're a lot better off settling your scientists rather than using them for techs or a GA. A settled scientist in the same city will give you approximately 30 beakers per turn. A technology discovery is about 1500 beakers. Break even point is about 50 turns.

If you are going for a space race victory then yes (most of the time), however if you are going for domination then no way. You cannot blindly compare beakers and say the above method is better in all circumstances. For example, I often set up my GLib city to generate all scientists. With a philo civ this will allow me to lightbulb techs like crazy and get insanely early cavalry or cannons. I can usually end the game very fast at this point before I even build Oxford to get the huge multiplier.

You are not taking into account the various strategies that involve lightbulbing techs. All you are doing is comparing beaker output. Securing key units can translate to more cities which then translates into more beakers. This can easily make up for the beaker discrepancy. The beakers from settled scientists will add up slowly over long periods of time and eventually translate into a science advantage, but this is a rather passive effect and not very tangible. If I get key techs or units way ahead of my opponents, that is an obvious benefit that I can put into action right away. From a strategy standpoint this gives you way more options early in the game and IMO is a better use of scientists.

[Goncyn]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Thanks RJM! That's exactly the sort of baseline help I was looking for.

So after scientific method, I should be pumping out at least 1000 beakers per turn. Very helpful.

I think that you are placing a little too much faith in these "baselines" you are looking for. If you go play your game now and just try to get 1000 beakers/turn because someone quoted that number on a forum somewhere, you are focusing on the wrong end of things.

You'll know you have "enough" beakers for your specific game when you are staying comfortably ahead in the tech race, or when you get that crucial military tech early enough to wipe the floor with your enemies. Focus on building strong, well-specialized cities with lots of commerce. React to the challenges you encounter in each game. You'll know you're doing well when you're 1000 points ahead in score and own half the world, not when you reach some arbitrary number of beakers.

That having been said, the discussion going on here about how to achieve 1000 beakers per turn are definitely useful and informative . Build those cottages!

[Blake]

PaganPaulwhisky raises a good point.

The way I see it there's basically 3 main routes through the tech tree:
1) The Liberalism route. This is the high science, high slider setting, peaceful building route. This gets you universities and the free tech. But if you don't have high science you wont get the Liberalism free tech, and universities don't work without high science. You also wont have a good military.
2) The Guilds route. This gets you all the good military units and the Grocer. When your science allocation is low the gold multipliers are a more effective way to raise science (because more commerce is freed up to go to science). IMO this is by far the most powerful way to play at the higher difficulties where you can't hope to get Liberalism first and are always playing catchup. A beeline to Guilds will usually keep you near the cutting edge of military, even at Emperor. Your science WILL suck but it'll be enough to get the next military unit and keep fighting.
After guilds you can easily get Banking for a big boost to your finances (banks and merchantalism). Also chemistry is very close and then you can get steel and dominate the world.
Playing this way it's not unusual to have +100% gold multipliers while still only having +25% science (except for cities with Academies).
3) The tragic artist route. You get religions and music and stuff and then get your face pounded in by a warmonger with no appreciation for art. Not reccomended unless you're isolated and going for cultural victory.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Blake
3) The tragic artist route. You get religions and music and stuff and then get your face pounded in by a warmonger with no appreciation for art. Not reccomended unless you're isolated and going for cultural victory.

OK, with the sugar-coating off, tell us how you really feel about culture.

Actually, I find I can go get enough cultural things while on my way to guilds. A small side step to try for drama (culture bomb is still worth a few turns of research) but keep a close eye out to see if you miss it.

Tom P.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by Goncyn

I think that you are placing a little too much faith in these "baselines" you are looking for. If you go play your game now and just try to get 1000 beakers/turn because someone quoted that number on a forum somewhere, you are focusing on the wrong end of things.

Nope, not at all. You are misinterpreting the reason for my interest.

I play on Noble and always win. I just always win too late. Too slow. Too low of a score.

I'm always way ahead of the AI in the beginning, but then in the midgame, the AI starts to close in on me, and although I still manage to win.. the AI is getting closer, the game ends up being a bunch of 'push enter' for about the last 2 hours. Which is boring as hell and leads to a low score.

So I was asking for baseline values so I can judge where I need more improvement in my game to win faster, remove the boredom, and increase my score.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by padillah


Actually, I find I can go get enough cultural things while on my way to guilds. A small side step to try for drama (culture bomb is still worth a few turns of research) but keep a close eye out to see if you miss it.

Tom P.

Or, you can do what I've been doing and after going back over through some of Vel's old Workshop threads realized was incredibly stupid, and that's go halfway down the culture tree and then try to beeline towards machinery/guilds, etc.. and end up just mirered in mediocrity because while drama makes my people happy, it sucks money of the bank and I don't have sufficent research in order to fund a beeline deep into down the 'machinery' branch of the tech tree.

Bah.

Horrible tech path I've using forever.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky


If you are going for a space race victory then yes (most of the time), however if you are going for domination then no way. You cannot blindly compare beakers and say the above method is better in all circumstances. For example, I often set up my GLib city to generate all scientists. With a philo civ this will allow me to lightbulb techs like crazy and get insanely early cavalry or cannons. I can usually end the game very fast at this point before I even build Oxford to get the huge multiplier.

You are not taking into account the various strategies that involve lightbulbing techs. All you are doing is comparing beaker output. Securing key units can translate to more cities which then translates into more beakers. This can easily make up for the beaker discrepancy. The beakers from settled scientists will add up slowly over long periods of time and eventually translate into a science advantage, but this is a rather passive effect and not very tangible. If I get key techs or units way ahead of my opponents, that is an obvious benefit that I can put into action right away. From a strategy standpoint this gives you way more options early in the game and IMO is a better use of scientists.

Very true. My first scientists always builds an academy. Thereafter, if your scientist gives you a key technology, go for it. Even the much derided GA can be useful in the endgame (or for a very large empire). And everything depends on your play style and what victory you're going for. But mostly, if you've got a decent science city, you'll get more from settling a scientist than the other uses.

RJM

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

FWIW, in my current Noble game, I was generating mostly Great Scientists. After the Academy in my capital, I lightbulbed almost all the others. Result - I'm way ahead in tech (Modern Armor/Mech Inf/Stealth, and the most advanced AI is on the cusp of getting Infantry) despite having foolishly traded a lot of techs for cash earlier in the game.