Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume III

[Urban Ranger]

Here's what I tend to build:

Appropiate improvements on specials
Watermills along rivers
Windmills on grassy knolls
Cottages on grasslands
Mines on plains hills
Workshops on plains
Farms for chaining or where I need extra food

[Arrian]

Like a good commie!

I've never really gone for lots of watermills and workshops. Windmills yes.

-Arrian

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Here's what I tend to build:

Appropiate improvements on specials
Watermills along rivers
Windmills on grassy knolls
Cottages on grasslands
Mines on plains hills
Workshops on plains
Farms for chaining or where I need extra food

The thing about watermills is that they give you that one hammer; I think it goes to two later; and nothing else; pretty much knocking out a good square. They don't have the efficiency of mines for this and the lost food costs growth and/or GP. I like to build them on tundra or ice and not too many places else, though I did recently use them to spruce up a city that had virtually no naturally occurring hammers at all.

I like windmills on non-grassy knolls, so you can get at least some food value out of those bald nobs; the governor often will select them last otherwise, even if you select "emphasize production." Putting them on a grassy knoll is icing on the cake if you need food; but the one food that's there anyway will get them selected and at least contribute something and then you put a mine there and get an extra hammer per square, which is often important.

Re: N35t0r; Sometimes the obvious can completely miss one (me, not you.) Thanks for pointing out that GP ease out with the speed of paint drying in Marathon. Some of us are liberal arts types who play the game for love of history and have no penchant for math. Many statistical analyses done by others here have flown right by my head, until I read them here. Your comment was not statistical per se; but provided an epiphany for me. I've been struggling most of the spring trying to make GPP strategies that were discussed earlier in the year work for me, but forgot, when confronted with mixed results, I always play on Marathon.

Re: Arrian (and N35t0r) ; It is clear communism is good in this game. In past versions, as well as CTP, there were always handicaps to it. I still find it distasteful to make the switch, though I usually research it for spies and sometimes the Kremlin; because I know in the real world it was an absolute failure, lasting really only 73 years, other than in China, (which is a special case for everything and even there is being modified; ) and unsuccessful for virtually the whole term in most other places. (The USSR was able to industrialize quickly in the Thirties, at terrible cost; and thus resist successfully Nazi Germany; probably the only other accomplishment, other than alleged spiffy health care in Cuba.)

I feel the designers screwed up big time making communism so desirable in this game, but I suppose that rant is better for another thread.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
The thing about watermills is that they give you that one hammer; I think it goes to two later; and nothing else; pretty much knocking out a good square. They don't have the efficiency of mines for this and the lost food costs growth and/or GP.

You get the hammers completely free. The only drawback is you can't build a farm or a cottage there. However, you can build cottages everywhere and also farms after Civil Service. The watermill is so good that you can only build on one bank of a river.

[smbakeresq]

I think wind and water mills are great, and try to build them whenever possible.

For a grassland water mill, you can get 2F, 2H, 1C, so the tile supports itself and gives you some hammers and gold. For Plains, it is an extra hammer for food, so a food suplus of one will allow you to net 3H from the square, as good as an engineer for less food cost.

For a plains hill, a windmill is 1F, 3H, 1C, same as the watermill. The grassland hill is 2F, 2H, 1C, so a self supporting tile with 2 hammers. It hard to beat that. Someone did an analysis here, but would you farm a grass for 4F and mine a hill for 4 hammers or put up two grassland water or windmills for 4F, 4H, and 2 coins?

It seems to me anything to help trade without sacrificing food or produciton is worthwhile.

Maybe I am wrong though...

[CerberusIV]

One of the interesting things about watermills is that they can be built on ice tiles. That may allow a couple of extra hammers in a fishing village that has a food surplus but few hammers to build a forge for an engineer.

[smbakeresq]

Link to Courdelions research - Windmills, Watermills

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148052

[smbakeresq]

I never tried to build them on ice, that is good information. Thanks

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
One of the interesting things about watermills is that they can be built on ice tiles. That may allow a couple of extra hammers in a fishing village that has a food surplus but few hammers to build a forge for an engineer.

Like the tundra watermills and windmills these are things that are way down on the "worker priority list". However, if you run automatic workers they are probably the highest priority after the workers have replaced all your towns with farms

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by smbakeresq
For a plains hill, a windmill is 1F, 3H, 1C, same as the watermill. The grassland hill is 2F, 2H, 1C, so a self supporting tile with 2 hammers. It hard to beat that. Someone did an analysis here, but would you farm a grass for 4F and mine a hill for 4 hammers or put up two grassland water or windmills for 4F, 4H, and 2 coins?

It seems to me anything to help trade without sacrificing food or produciton is worthwhile.

Maybe I am wrong though...

Post biology- pre rails and electricity.

With all three

farmed grassland + mine = 4/5/0
two windmills = 4/4/6 (+2 if fin)

+1 hammer v +6 commerce is a relatively simple choice in most games.

[tommynt]

watermills wtf - just cottage evrey tile u can food with other tiles - u get 1 free hamer anyway after democrazy - these tiles really kick ass 8 (with river) gold 2 food 1 hammer - thats way to go

[tommynt]

and with lot of ice/tundra - just get global warming fast
or not - hm

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by tommynt
watermills wtf - just cottage evrey tile u can food with other tiles - u get 1 free hamer anyway after democrazy - these tiles really kick ass 8 (with river) gold 2 food 1 hammer - thats way to go

This is not quite true. The +1hammer does not come with democracy and is only granted to towns. The bonus comes from Free Speech (I believe) which might be chosen at the expense of another civic.

If you are going to compare a town generating an extra 0/1/7 benefit (ignore the river because you get that anyway) then you should do so with a windmill generating 1/2/0 (1 food from state property and 2 hammers from the improvement).

Of course, in most cases the benefit from the town will be better than that from the watermill except in cities dedicated to production where the benefit of a town might be insignificant given the lack of many key science or gold multipliers.

[smbakeresq]

Thanks Couerdelion.

I also think that the longer the game, marathon v epic, (does anyone play normal anymore?) the better the return.

Also thanks for your late game improvement article before. I just wish the scoring system was more balanced for those who build or build and then conquer late vs the warmonger path. It would let more people get to the later game improvements and enjoy the benefits.

[tommynt]

oh well every1 can play how he want - but cottage everything get demo and emancipation as fastt as possible and to switch to free speach as soon as most cottages converted to towns is most easy way to win - by that time u got kinda lot of lux to make people happy and with a theater everywhere u can easily keep em happy with 10% cult. Espacially for the usual SP plan to build and kill in the end with superior units thats way to go - u tech superfast in start and right when u need the production (at about time from cavs or infantry) u switch to this +1 hammer civic and production ll kinda skyrocket - add 1 GA maybe and u even get 2 hammers on every tile