Social Engineering vs Civics

[Willem]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun


If he was forced to be productive...

In that case you end up with rebellions, which were completely counter-productive. You can only suppress a person so much.

[fed1943]

Is there slavery in USA,UK,Japan,Germany?If yes,then slavery is very produtive.
Best regards,

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Locutus
Words

Interesting point this, regarding punishment. I've seen lots of AC scrubs avoid SE at all simply because of the negative effects. They were completely unable to balance in their minds the relative values of +2 growth, +1 industry against -2 efficiency. Trying to teach them the strength of Free Market (OMiGosh! -5 police!) was as productive as eating soup with a knife.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun


If he was forced to be productive...

Not really. Slavery is very unproductive system. It's advantage lies in the fact that it was impossible to maintain higher productivity level across the populace with limited resources available to ancient societies.

Besides, the theory of higher productivity of slavery is really tenable when you talk about unskilled, physical labour. When you require higher level skills (where productivity is not measured by a number hours spent working), it really becomes bollocks. That's why it could conceivably work only in primitive societies.

[Martinus]

Yeah, I have to agree - there's no downside to slavery. I'm not sure I agree with "productivity" in regards to slaves - afterall, according to the history most widely accepted, even the Egyptian Pyramids were built on the backs of slaves.

I believe this belief was rejected by majority of historians about 20-30 years ago.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by timbrom


Depends on what you mean by productive. Per unit cost, it is/was cheaper to use slaves in some fields (if you'll pardon the pun).

Per unit cost, yes. Per man-hour, no.

[Adagio]

I like the SE better than the civics system

[Apocalypse]

SE doesn't really work for Civ....you can't really socially engineer current civilizations that well. SMAC started off heavily ideallogically based.

In a SMAC2, I would like to see much more SE choices. I'm sure it would be there since Civics is rather detailed. RPG elements really make it a bit more interesting.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Martinus

I believe this belief was rejected by majority of historians about 20-30 years ago.

Interpretations are liable to fashion. German historians during the 2nd Reich had a terrible tendency to view things through hued glasses. Modern interpretations are likewise probably compromised by considerations of political correctness. Wait another few decades and we'll soon see slavery rejustified because, after all, it is our dear Muslims who practice slavery until this very day.

[Overcast32]

Well, the "skilled builder" theory is based on one scientist's find of a couple chambers that he speculates were the housing for the pyramid builders - so basically an educated guess.

I don't think there's any solid evidence really - but I'm positive *if* Egypt had slaves at the time (wasn't exactly uncommon at that time in history, hehe), they had quite a hand in the building of the temples. I'm sure they did have skilled engineers, architects, etc... but do you think the Egyptians would have done all the manual labor themselves if they had slaves? What would be the point of having slaves then?

I'm not talking biblical or anything - I mean in general. Who knows what kinds of slaves they had - I'm sure they weren't all that picky and would accept any person as a slave - not just jews, lol.

My best guess is that they ran it, like humans have ran things for thousands of years and continue to today..

They probably had designers at the top end - who never got their hands dirty, just bossed everyone around.

They probably had some sort of middle class too - skilled masonry workers, skilled animal handlers, etc.

And without doubt there was the pure labor portion of the work. Mixing the sand, pulling the bricks, etc - whatever needed done. I'm sure they didn't take chances with their skilled workers and put them at risk by moving a 40 ton stone...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Locutus
As I remember SE, it was mostly about detailed policy making, comparatively minor internal policy decisions (a little more economic freedom here, a little more attention to the environment there).

What Solver said. The SE choices are quite fundamental.

Originally posted by Locutus
As for effects tied to such civics, it's been shown that players generally don't like punishments.

Surely? AC has got quite a following

Originally posted by Locutus
And as JackRudd says, the cost of civics is that you only get to choose one out of 5 distinctly different effects, so you miss out on 2 or 3 good options per category.

I don't see that as a cost, since you will be in one of the choices at all time anyway (barring aranchy). The only real cost is maintenance if there's no negative modifiers.

Originally posted by Locutus
Obviously. A free man doesn't work 24/7 at zero pay.

Neither does a slave -- or you'll end up with a dead slave very soon.

[Son of David]

Didn't it used to be that Despotism in Civ3 allowed pop-rushing but also meant that any tile producing ordinarily more than two food would produce one less?

Why not reintroduce that for the Slavery civic in Civ4? Less food = less workers = less productivity.

[CarnalCanaan]

The downside of slavery - ancient or modern - was cultural. Egypt lost it's cheap labor to a johnny-come-lately named Moses, Rome became decadent and inept, Tenochtitlan may have massacred tens of thousands of able-bodied persons to satisfy their spirituality, the United States broke down into civil war.

If there's to be a "punishment" inherent in the Slavery civic I think it should be a retarding of cultural output.

[Grandpa Troll]

I agree

Slavery ouight to have severe penalties, especially more that you grow under such a state

[Zoid]

Yes, slavery has a profound effect on society in terms of productivity and social unrest. This also goes for serfdom IMO.