Social Engineering vs Civics

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Zoid
Yes, slavery has a profound effect on society in terms of productivity and social unrest. This also goes for serfdom IMO.

But OTOH would this have been so if people didn't know anything other than an existence of slavery? If they didn't know that other people like them lived as freepersons?

I mean, we don't always see something unless other people have it.

So if every civ in the game has slavery or serfdom, the slaves won't become unhappy - since no one adopts emancipation, since the world doesn't know anything but slavery.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Son of David

But OTOH would this have been so if people didn't know anything other than an existence of slavery? If they didn't know that other people like them lived as freepersons?

For comparison purposes, all the slaves had to do was look at their overlords. Not everyone in a slave-based economy is a slave. If the overlords were cruel, that would be sufficient to create resentment for the institution.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Willem
For comparison purposes, all the slaves had to do was look at their overlords. Not everyone in a slave-based economy is a slave. If the overlords were cruel, that would be sufficient to create resentment for the institution.

Then again, if I look at Bill Gates or some other millionaire (basically any CEO of a medium-sized or larger corporation -- the modern equivalent of ancient slave owners) I could be having it much better as well, and the vast majority of society with me. But you don't see us rioting...

In fact, in many a slave-based society (at least ancient ones) the slaves had it better than the poorest of the free men: at least many slaves were guaranteed a roof over their head, enough food to survive, some level of protection and sometimes even a few luxuries (e.g. medical care)...

[Willem]

Originally posted by Locutus

Then again, if I look at Bill Gates or some other millionaire (basically any CEO of a medium-sized or larger corporation -- the modern equivalent of ancient slave owners) I could be having it much better as well, and the vast majority of society with me. But you don't see us rioting...

They are in France at the moment. Fortunately our labour relations have improved to the point that strikes and walkouts are usually sufficient to address the demands of the workers. Though even then they sometimes get ugly. People have even lost their lives.

In fact, in many a slave-based society (at least ancient ones) the slaves had it better than the poorest of the free men: at least many slaves were guaranteed a roof over their head, enough food to survive, some level of protection and sometimes even a few luxuries (e.g. medical care)...

But in many societies, revolts and rebellions were commonplace. The key is in how the masters treat their "property". Oppression and cruelty is going to be met with resistance and rebellion regardless of what economic form is used.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Willem
They are in France at the moment.

Key word: at the moment. But by and large we're all fine with the fact that our bosses are for a large part (multi-)millionaires and can do whatever the hell they want and generally get away with more than us mortals can (if they do break the law and get caught they can still afford better laywers).

But in many societies, revolts and rebellions were commonplace.

But it were usually the lower class free men that rebelled, not the slaves.

The key is in how the masters treat their "property".

That is true for any society, whether it's masters vs property/slaves, lords vs serfs, industrials vs factory grunts, upper class vs lower class, etc. This is largely modeled by happiness and other civics in Civ4, the existance of slavery is an independent issue from this. The inherent unrest as a result of lack of freedom that comes with slavery/serfdom is modeled by Emancipation, following Son of David's line of reasoning.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Son of David




But OTOH would this have been so if people didn't know anything other than an existence of slavery? If they didn't know that other people like them lived as freepersons?

I mean, we don't always see something unless other people have it.

So if every civ in the game has slavery or serfdom, the slaves won't become unhappy - since no one adopts emancipation, since the world doesn't know anything but slavery.

But we known that slavery is bad, and choosing slavery as a civic should therefore "punish" the player more than it does now.

[Solver]

Gameplay first and foremost! You could make Slavery -5 happiness in all cities, who'd ever pick it?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Solver
Gameplay first and foremost! You could make Slavery -5 happiness in all cities, who'd ever pick it?

I agree Solver, what I think would be better would be a potential unknown "downside" anywhere from minimal penalties from murmurings to massive penalties such as you suggest -5 happiness in all cities


Just thoughts

[Willem]

I kind of like the idea of bringing back the tile caps we used to have under Despotism in the previous civs. Not that it matters to me though, I don't really use Slavery. I always go for Caste System as early as possible.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Willem
Not that it really matters to me though, I don't really use Slavery. I always go for Caste System as early as possibe.

So did I, but I've now grown used to it, it's not as bad as it first seems

[Willem]

Originally posted by Adagio


So did I, but I've now grown used to it, it's not as bad as it first seems

It's not that Slavery is bad, it's that Caste System is better. I go for Code of Laws fairly early in order to get Confucianism. Since I also get Caste System I can start running Scientists in order to get an Academy or two built as quickly as possible. I find that much more beneficial than being able to pop rush something.

[font9a]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Son of David



>>>>
Why? What was historically less productive about slavery-employing empires and nations in the past?
>>>>

Ummm... How about a entire moral, social, and civil society retarded by slavery?


-- font9a

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Solver
Gameplay first and foremost! You could make Slavery -5 happiness in all cities, who'd ever pick it?

You could make Despotism worse. Then, anybody who hasn't discovered something better will use it.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by font9a [/SIZE]
Ummm... How about a entire moral, social, and civil society retarded by slavery?


-- font9a

Any particular society in mind, my friend?

Ancient Greek society flourished culturally, its slavery notwithstanding.

Actually if you look at history you'll see that slavery was absolutely irresistible to many of the world's cultures as they realized how useful it was to subjugate captured foreigners and sacrifice their lives to get things done.

It is practiced, indeed, to this very day: in the Muslim world!

Although I suspect almost all of the 'moral indignation' over slavery comes about as a result of people being taught to feel guilty about their own country's past, rather than to have humanitarian sentiments per se.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll


I agree Solver, what I think would be better would be a potential unknown "downside" anywhere from minimal penalties from murmurings to massive penalties such as you suggest -5 happiness in all cities


Just thoughts

Obviously the penalties must be balanced against the advantages.