'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

[Strategist83]

Most of the civics in the game follow the same general outline: Starting with very weak ones, more powerful civics are unlocked as time progresses. This is not to say later civics equal better civics, but there is a trend towards that. Who prefers slavery to emancipation, for example?

Nationhood is a very late but surprisingly weak civic. It's low upkeep, granted, but it is a civic one would typically only run during wartime. A warmonger player would typically choose to go with the much earlier vassalage civic because this coupled with theocracy and a barracks results in units receiving two inherent promotions. This seems rather silly: An industrialized society still employing feudal social structures?

I think nationhood should be changed to go with the general trend of later civics being upgrades rather than alternatives. Further, I think it should have a military focus. I therefore propose nationhood is bolstered with a unit experience boost (like vassalage) or a military production speed bonus or a combination of the two of them. Even a single extra experience point would be enough for the second promotion right off the bat.

[Urban Ranger]

What are you talking about?

Nationhood allows you to draft multiple units in one turn. Nationhood + Police State is a very strong wartime combo.

[Strategist83]

Keyword being 'wartime'. I think it should have uses beyond just being the civic you quickly switch over to to raise and army and then back to whatever civic you were employing before ASAP.

[Senethro]

What about +25% city defense?

Or partisans!

[Tattila the Hun]

Resistance/immunity towards flipping?

[monkspider]

Nationhood is pretty powerful as is, but I wouldn't be completely against some kind of very small boost. The best way to make use of it is in cities with a high growth rate, granaries and lots of happiness improvements/Globe Theatre. You can really build a large army even if you have very low production.

As for Vassalage/Nationhood, it is a question of quality vs. quaniity. Vassalage promises you higher quality troops though nationhood gives you more of them.

The only civic that I think could truly use a boost is mercantilism. I never use it except under very rare circumstances (philosophical civ, already running representation, poor relations with all neighbors, etc).

[Yosho]

Nationhood is already incredibly powerful, for short periods of time. Instead of just making 1 or 2 units in 5 turns; with nationhood, you can make those units AND draft 15 riflemen in the same 5 turns. That's the difference between "getting killed" and "conquering the other guy".

Nationhood is so strong, it's one of the main reasons I like to use a spiritual leader. You can actually get away with focusing more on your economy and letting your millitary lag a bit, if you know you can instantly flip over to nationhood and turn out a huge army. Even without spiritual, it's probably worth the turn of anarchy to change what would have been a horribly lost war to a glorious victory.

It's not terrible for the longer term, either; that +2 happiness is nothing to sneeze at. Combined with that, just the ability to turn out an extra unit every few turns from marginal cities can make it worthwhile to keep running nationhood for the longer term in some situations.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: 'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

Originally posted by Strategist83
Who prefers slavery to emancipation, for example?

Am I missing something here? Slavery has no upkeep. The only benefit of Emancipation is faster growth for cottages, etc. But by then all your cottages are fully grown. The only reason to switch from Slavery to Emancipation is to avoid the unhapiness penalty if someone else has switched. Sefdom and Caste System are even better than Slavery of course, so I certainly prefer them to Emancipation.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am talking about playing Civ IV, not about morality in RL.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Urban Ranger]

Yeah, but how often is it that all you have are towns and there's nothing you need to grow?

[Ijuin]

I have made the following alterations to my own game to make weak Civics choices more powerful:

Universal Sufferage: +1 hammer from Villiage (to make it an attractive alternative to Representation)

Bureaucracy: Reduced Upkeep to Low (to make it more attractive vs. Vassalave)

Nationhood: Raised happiness bonus for Barracks from +2 to +4

Slavery: +1 hammers from Mine (Pop rushing alone never made me prefer it over Caste System once the latter was available)

Emancipation: +1 happy all cities (if they are unhappy that they are unfree, then they should be happy that they are free)

Mercantilism: +2 free specialists instead of +1, raised Upkeep cost to High (loss of foreign trade in large cities was often bigger than the gain from a free specialist)

Free Market: +2 trade routes instead of +1 (one trade route hardly worth the anarchy)

[Son of David]

Re: Re: 'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


The only reason to switch from Slavery to Emancipation is to avoid the unhapiness penalty if someone else has switched.

Or to impose it (the unhappiness) on others when you are first to get democracy and are ahead technologically.

Anyhow, many would argue that the industrial revolution effectively put millions of working class Europeans into a state of slavery. Either spend all your productive life in a demeaning job, slaving away for your subsistence, or die. Western society has only very recently emerged fully from a state of total enslavement of the mass of the population. There's no reason to suppose that we are today 'emancipated' for altruistic reasons. Everything is done for the convenience of the ruling class.

[Yosho]

Re: Re: 'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

Sefdom and Caste System are even better than Slavery of course, so I certainly prefer them to Emancipation.

Really? If I'm playing spiritual, then serfdom and caste system can be useful tools at times; but I usually run slavery for something like 90% of the game. It's cheaper, and pop rushing is ALWAYS useful.

[Gherald]

Bureaucracy: Reduced Upkeep to Low (to make it more attractive vs. Vassalave)

For my purposes, Bureaucracy is already way more powerful than Vassalage. I will often switch in 1950 BC and stay there the entire game.

Theocracy makes Vassalage almost useless until Pentagon (and even then, only useful for a large empire during serious wartime).

So I typically only get Feudalism for the path to Banking, especially if I don't need Knights.

Nationalism is useless to me because I like small, powerful armies with at least 2 promotions (barracks plus either theo or pentagon). But that's a matter of preference, and I can see how Nationalism would be useful to someone with a different playstyle, particularly Spis.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Re: Re: 'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

Originally posted by Son of David


Or to impose it (the unhappiness) on others when you are first to get democracy and are ahead technologically.

Well yes, but you can't be sure how much that unhapiness will affect the others, so it's a bit of a stab in the dark.

Originally posted by Son of David
Anyhow, many would argue that the industrial revolution effectively put millions of working class Europeans into a state of slavery. Either spend all your productive life in a demeaning job, slaving away for your subsistence, or die. Western society has only very recently emerged fully from a state of total enslavement of the mass of the population. There's no reason to suppose that we are today 'emancipated' for altruistic reasons. Everything is done for the convenience of the ruling class.

And to repeat, I was talking about the game, not about real life.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Re: Re: 'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

Originally posted by Yosho


Really? If I'm playing spiritual, then serfdom and caste system can be useful tools at times; but I usually run slavery for something like 90% of the game. It's cheaper, and pop rushing is ALWAYS useful.

I guess that whether you prefer Slavery, Serfdom or Caste System depends on your play style. However, whichever you prefer, it still contradicts the OP's suggestion that Emancipation is the preference.

RJM at Sleeper's