Deity level actually quite difficult

[couerdelion]

I’m looking for some ideas how to handle playing on deity level. My initial take on this level of the game would be that a large part of it would revolve around military expansion letting the AI use its huge bonuses to build cities for you. From my experiences at the first game, I was reasonably happy with this as a strategy but found the AI left me standing on the tech front and that all my military efforts did were to stifle my own tech advancement and that of the Victoria, my “unfortunate” neighbour.

Now I guess you’ll understand that “unfortunate” is a relative term here simply because of the headstart that the AI gets with its free settler/workers and the 40% reduction in build costs. I could even count myself lucky that Vicky chose to build a city right on the edge of my capitals “fat cross” so that the citizens of Hastings were quickly enamored of Stonehenge (the one feasible wonder).

In fact, I built Stonehenge for the Prophet sling to CoL and a religion so, in some respects, this was not an entirely unsuccessful strategy. Once I had this tech my three cities went straight for military builds with Axemen as the mainstay and a few supplementary spearmen to deal with Vicky’s chariots.

The big problem was still that the AI has significant defenses. My first war, cost me about 4 or 5 units to around 18 English ones and all I had to show for this was the captured city of York – having checked out London, I saw 7 Archers defending the capital which was far too much for my 8 Axemen to break. But allowing for the AI bonuses, those 18 English units costs just 270 hammers while my losses were around the 150 level. My production was augmented a little but still well below that of the English.

In the next 10 turns, I struck at a Barbarian city and got myself a few more promotions so that, by the time the English has settled Warwick, my Cover/City RaiderII Axemen were on hand to move on the city. In this second war, I first wiped out all the defenders of Warwick except a Chariot. With a population of 1, I did not want to throw away the chance of a free city and Warwick conveniently created an English Verdun. A few of my experienced Axemen were left watching the city and every three or four turns, a couple of archers would appear and were attacked the instant they arrived in the city (no culture or fortification bonuses). All this time, my forces were building up in York for a push on Nottingham (Taoist holy city) and a couple of spearmen were sweeping up the regular incursions of chariots.

By the time I had captured Nottingham, I had killed over 40 units in total over the course of 75 game turns and lost 6 or 7. London was now looking impervious with about 10 archers– although I guess it would fall to the neighbouring Japanese if they just sent a warrior to knock on the city gates..

All this time, costs were hardly crippling but neither were they comfortable (losing money at 50% science). Russia and Japan were way ahead with techs like Compass, Metal Working, Monarchy. With Construction a few turns away, I could conceivably have put an end to the English nuisance but by the time I had gone through the motions of taking their cities, I was almost certain that Tokugawa would be knocking on my door with plenty of Samurai.

Now this is what I would consider as a successful early game yet the stats are showing me at the bottom of the pack on almost every count.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

For information purposes, I’m playing as Huayna Capac. I figured that the military and financial bonuses could work quite well together.

[Nacht]

I salute you for trying deity

I think that at the higher difficulty levels being last in the early game is unavoidable. You simply can't compete against the AI's bonusses at that time. Later, your superior city/military/empire management closes the gap.

[Shaka II]

I've never tried above emperor, but am getting ready to try immortal. Your approach seems sound, that having aggressive and financial traits are good choices. Aggressive is nice for gaining the early conquest of a neighbor to double your civ size, while financial allows good expansion, while maintaining science.

Perhaps an ultra early Quechua rush to win an enemy capital? Sounds fun, probably best to have about a 3:1 ratio to take a city with archers. The window is so small against archers. The capital is usually too well defended to take it with axemen, but cities other than the capital can be taken with axes and swords.

The one advantage the human player has is in fighting, so it seems like that's where victory would have to come from, at least half of it. I.e., warmonger stage followed by builder stage should work as should pure warmonger.

Maybe Caesar with Praetorians would be a good choice too or Tokugawa with Samurai, both are organized. Samurai come at a time when your capital is well developed and so can pump out units quickly. And, Tokugawa is aggressive, so it would seem ideal.

I vote Quechua rush for Capac, but Caesar and Tokugawa have the best overall traits and UUs.

Washington has great attributes for domination, but he's a late starter without mining, so a tech race to gain superiority with mid game conquests seem more appropriate.

It would be fun to try some time.

[Blake]

The main challenge (heh) is that the AI has massive boosts, and the human also suffers very severely from expanding due to increased upkeeps. It's a double whammy, and it's brutal. Don't expand agressively and get left horribly behind due to lack of bonuses, expand agressively and get left horribly behind due to high expenses.

I'm of the opinion that Deity is supposed to be unwinnable, except cheesily. Like the Rome praets+anarchy strat. Rome is of course a good choice because being behind in tech doesn't hurt nearly as much - your UU will last until gunpowder.

[Smellycowsquid]

Tried, Failed, tried failed.......Maybe someday...

[Aeson]

On Deity (standard type settings... not the cheesey 1v1s or 1v3s on the little maps) you have to take a much more precise approach to the game to give yourself a good chance of winning. And that's what it's going to be, a good chance of winning. You will need some luck to go your way.

Also, the "easy" tactics that work on lower difficulties aren't going to work very well. The gameplay is actually balanced best on Deity IMO.

Overexpanding is going to hurt a lot. Maintenance will knock you out of the tech race, and once you're out it's hard to get back in. ORG really shines on Deity.

Clear-cutting Forests, outside the aforementioned cheesey perpetual-anarchy, is really going to hurt too. First, the "overexpanding" is out, and second, Health limits hit very hard, very early. It's common to be limited to size 3-4 cities by Health and/or Happiness, and you can't just expand fast to grab the health resources either. Drama or Religion allow you to deal with the Happiness issues rather easily. (Hereditary Rule is not as good an idea, the units cost too much.) EXP really shines on Deity too. The difference between 3-4 sized cities, and 5-6 is night and day.

Settlers first is almost always a bad idea. A Worker first is dangerous, but can work. You need 3-4 Warriors to uncover the FOW and keep barbs from spawning near your cities. And you'll need them fast. The first barb Warriors/Archers can show up around 3000BC. Be on those Forest/Jungle Hills! So build Warriors early. Enough of them can save you from having to research (to) Archery long enough for you to get Chariots or Axes.

CRE or Stonehenge for cultural borders just aren't going to cut it. I don't think CRE is worth much at all on Deity. They're going to be putting out extremely high culture from even perimeter cities very quickly. The only thing +1 or +2 culture per turn per city can really accomplish is to get you into trouble by settling in areas you shouldn't.

You probably don't want to found your own religion. If you do go for one, you'll have to work really hard to make sure at least a few of the AI adopt it, especially your neighbors. It's usually better to let the AI spread theirs to you I think, let them do the work. Pottery, Alphabet, and Drama are so important that going with Religion first is generally a bad idea.

So what does work? Culture is probably the easiest to do. It's more of a game vs the mechanics if you go with a Specialist heavy approach. (Wonder approaches won't work so well.) You need to beat the AI's launch date, which should almost always be possible. The only real fear is being conquered. 6 cities is probably the minimum. You need the Cathedrals in 2 cities, and the 3rd can be mostly Great Works. Caste System is your friend.

Spaceship is possible too. You need to stay in good relations for trading with at least 2-3 AI's. It's possible to get screwed by having the wrong leaders in the game (in the wrong places). Part of the luck involved.

Even large map Domination/Conquest is possible. But that's a more advanced subject. Basically though, there is still a snowball effect with warfare. If you go, and don't go, at the right times.

---------------

The most important thing is Tech trading, thus relations. Once you get the relations figured out, it's much the same game as it was in Civ III. As long as you are in front! It doesn't work the same from behind. Get Alphabet first, contacts early. Don't trade techs untill you have to, and don't research laterally at all if possible. Going a level deeper into the tech tree will get you those lateral techs faster than you can research them yourself. GP's for techs become almost paramount in this regard. By association, PHI is too. Target the techs that give you a free GP or tech and make sure to get there first. (Use GP to get there if necessary.)

You'll have to carve out some room to work with. You can win a space race with 7-10 cities on a standard map. Probably can found 3-4 of those yourself on average. So you will have to fight. Don't go too quickly though. (Though an ultra-early Worker grab is often useful.) Take a city or two with Axes/Horses, but don't try for too much. Wait for Catapults for the next couple. You don't need the 7-10 cities until the mid-Industrial age, so there's plenty of time. Until then you can keep up in the tech race with Cottages and GP with intelligent trading.

When you do fight the later wars, get someone on your side. It's worth a tech or two. Having a Caesar, Catherine, or Isabella for your religion partner works well. They tend to be slower on tech, and aren't too psycho to deal with. (Isabella is psycho, but in your favor if you share a religion.) If you're ally is Mansa Musa or the like... you're in trouble. It will be tough to have anything to offer that won't lose you the tech race.

Build up a force you can't support except by running low to no science after getting to your unit tech, hit hard and fast. You should have your goals accomplished by the time they are willing to talk to you, burning through most of your units in the process. (The sooner they die, the better... so long as they did their job.) Once you've taken your target city(s), your military is likely still going to be too big to support indefinitely, give some of those units to your former enemy to fight off your ally with if you hope to preserve them for later conflicts, or give them to your friend if you want your upset neighbor eliminated.

You can't "milk" these weakened AI in trading well at all, so don't try. They just aren't going to like you anymore. Either they are holding your cities for your next go at it, or they need to be eliminated. If you do keep them around, it's extremely important that you don't have any areas near your captured cities where they can found their own. So have a Settler ready.

I think PHI is generally the strongest trait on Deity. Mix it with FIN, ORG, or EXP for best effect for Spaceship, FIN or SPI for Culture. Elizabeth is probably the best bet for a spacerace, as you get Redcoats just about the time you have to start worrying about seaborn invasions from other continents. (Someone always seems to think that will be a good idea, so be ready.) That's not to say you can't win with other trait combos, just that it will be a bit more difficult.

Other than that, hope your neighbor ally doesn't turn on you. You should be able to deal with most anything else. Try to force yourself to keep some spare cash around for rushing/upgrading in emergencies (there will be a few). Have a couple Spies ready to go if the Spacerace is going to be tight. Remember, you don't need to research any techs that aren't required, you can trade for them. You don't have to win a war that breaks out near the end, just keep your cities that are still necessary for building parts. And don't save a costly part (or it's tech) for last!

[KerThud]

Aeson, that's a fantastic summary. I'm still playing monarch and emperor, but this helps me focus the strategies I need to develop.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Aeson

Isabella is psycho, but in your favor if you share a religion.

One game I shared Buddhism with her (she founded it no doubt), and I didn't have anything to offer to gain her support in a war against Tokugawa, so I asked if she could grant me this favor for a good friend. She thought about it a while and nodded yes.

Originally posted by Aeson

If you're ally is Mansa Musa or the like... you're in trouble. It will be tough to have anything to offer that won't lose you the tech race.

Ditto. My experiences with Mansa are generally that he stands in the way between me and victory. A dangerous ally. Caesar, Alex, and Ghengis are better for beating down the financial/science leaders like of Frederick and Mansa. These are just experiences on Emperor though.

So forests have to be saved on Deity? Uh, oh.

[couerdelion]

I think the Quecha rush is going to be very costly at deity level. With more cities and huge build cost reductions they will be able to produce at least two archers for each Quecha of yours. Once those Archers are inside a city, they probably have the edge in a 1-1 contest. But then you also have to worry that the AI has a near certainty of acquiring horses or copper very quickly. Once that happens, your Quecha stack is obsolete. All in all, the Quecha is not a particularly valuable unit at Deity level.

Putting aside the UUs for a second, I had a think about which are the most useful traits for taking the Deity level on. With my idea that an early strike being crucial just in order to start to recover some ground, aggressive comes high up the list since city busters will often be built with a starting +35% against archer (Combat I + Cover). After one kill this becomes +55%. For non-aggressive the best you’ll get from a barracks city is +20%/+45% respectively. Organised’s relative value comes from expansion and this is a lot harder and slower at this level. Financial is always a good trait.

Aeson, I certainly agree that founding a religion is probably not the best bet. Let the AI do this and also do the work to spread it. You’ve got enough on your hands to deal with without having to build monasteries and missionaries. Of course, the real reason you don’t want to start a religion is for diplomatic reasons since you need this for tech trading. Vertical research is also important but you’ll still need an initial base from which to fuel it. When you get each new tech you’ll often find that a lot of the AI civs have it already.

I’m not sure I agree with you on PHI leaders. With Wonders effectively off-limits, all the GPP have to come from specialists. More specialists = less food, production and commerce. For me, the idea of burning a GP for a tech seems a little wasteful although I guess the idea you are working with is to use this tech for trading purposes. Maybe it’s just my belief that GPs are there to help build a lead and not for playing catch-up. The other question I would raise is your suggestion that EXP is of much value because of the health bonuses to increase the size of cities. When comparing health and happiness the latter limits are more difficult to extend and more serious. I would still rate EXP as a valuable tech but this is more because of the cheap granaries for the production multiplier.

The other thing I would argue is that military expansion still has to be of value. 7-10 cities at by late-industrial seems quite low. Once you’ve got currency decent trade routes then each new city should quickly start to make a marginal contribution to techs so your typical fishing villages ought to be reasonable value over the long term . But they will often be bringing you resources that you lack so help ALL the cities. The other advantage of military expansion is that it takes production and commerce away from a rival so that your relative position improves.

Returning to the issue of UUs I think Shaka has highlighted the two best value ones. Strangely, though, Praets are weak against Crossbows and Macemen so the time period for these is not as long as it would be at an easier level. For me, the Samurai has to be the best value since these will be top value for a little while. Others that have their uses are Cho-Ki-Nu, Conqs, Quecha and of course the fast workers.

All in all, Toku shades them with useful traits (Agg/Org), a very strong UU (samurai) and the starting traits for Pottery. JC is probably my second choice but lacks the aggression to make it really strong.

[fed1943]

Great thread.And Aeson doesn't post everyday.I also sufer from Black'dilema:stop and lack of space and resources/go and lack of money and research.I read again the whole thread,and then again and again Aeson'post while remembering his game in AU100.So,
Aeson,please:
At least in the begining ,is overlaping the only way to get a viable defense,and so,a must (as the need of few cities to reduce expenses,so lack of resources,but the little value of the creative trait,seems to point)?
I tried to avoid the stop and go problem,replacing it by a balance,but I never got it;does one must just accept that stop and go and try to make each change at the right time?
My thanks in advance.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake
I'm of the opinion that Deity is supposed to be unwinnable, except cheesily. Like the Rome praets+anarchy strat. Rome is of course a good choice because being behind in tech doesn't hurt nearly as much - your UU will last until gunpowder.

I missed this nice piece of cheese. Can someone give me the link to the thread?

p.s. Surely Praets are toast to Macemen unless they have specialist CB/WE guards.

[KerThud]

The deity anarchy Roman cheese approach is given in Moonsinger's strategy article:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152148

[Aeson]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I’m not sure I agree with you on PHI leaders. With Wonders effectively off-limits, all the GPP have to come from specialists. More specialists = less food, production and commerce. For me, the idea of burning a GP for a tech seems a little wasteful although I guess the idea you are working with is to use this tech for trading purposes.

I think you are undervaluing Specialists' output.

First, you have a hard cap on population (Happiness) and a soft cap (Health). If you are at X population, and growing to X+1 is not going to help at all (Happiness), or not going to really produce anything of value (Health), then you don't need to grow anymore. But your "best" tiles to be working can still be producing a Food surplus. So using Mines or Specialists to "eat" the Food surplus while still being productive in other areas makes a lot of sense. The Happiness issue is important early on, the Health issue is the main factor for most of the game.

Ignoring GP entirely, Specialists can be competitive Commerce options. Especially in the first half of the game. Sure, they aren't that great for Production, but it's really about Commerce on Deity. You can easily produce more units than you could ever support anyways, simply by having a city or two using Mines rather than Specialists.

Add on GP, which are the end-all-be-all of Commerce in the early-mid game... and the (relevent) hole you start out on should be gone by Alphabet. Once you're out of the tech rate hole, the game is a lot easier.

You'll still be in a territory hole, but that is the easy part to address, at least once you've addressed the Commerce. (It is fatal to try to address the other way around.) The Deity AI is no better at tactical warfare than at any other difficulty. They have more numbers, but in the end, are not really any better at warfare. They just take a bit longer to deal with, or to build up to. Which is why the 1v1 and even 1v3 games are so cheesey. You can just wipe them out militarily, ignoring the economic concerns entirely, because bankruptcy can be avoided until about the end of the 3rd serialized war, and obsolescence has about the same timeframe. The military part of the game the player always wins easily.

That can be a self imposed part of the difficulty of Deity on standard settings if not guarded against. Too much military success is deadly economically.

Maybe it’s just my belief that GPs are there to help build a lead and not for playing catch-up.

My main point is that if you use GP for tech properly, you don't have to play catch up, just maintain the (very slight) lead.

The other question I would raise is your suggestion that EXP is of much value because of the health bonuses to increase the size of cities. When comparing health and happiness the latter limits are more difficult to extend and more serious.

Happiness is the limiting factor on population only until Drama. After that, Theaters and the Culture slider can be used to address Happiness as needed. If bumping the slider up allows you to grow 1 population in each city, then those population points only have to produce enough commerce to cover that bump in the slider. Basically, 1 or 2 Commerce, which should always be rather easy. This works even better in CIV than it did in Civ III because there is no Corruption to highly differentiate a core and perimeter city's Commerce (and thus Happiness per slider %) output. In CIV, a Cottage worked is for the most part a Cottage worked, regardless of where it is. And a Cottage worked will always pay for it's worker's Happiness and then some in the long run, and in the rather short term too, immediately for FIN even.

There simply is no Health slider. You're tied to resources and buildings. There's no Civic help in sight. The only "scaling" Health factor is future techs, which come after the game should be over in most cases.

So you have a static limitation on population, and a completely avoidable one. The static one should almost always be the limitation.

I would still rate EXP as a valuable tech but this is more because of the cheap granaries for the production multiplier.

I agree that Granaries are still important on Deity, but mainly if you have grain resources. Their growth modifier is less important because by the time you can build one, you're probably pushing the population limits (Health and/or Happiness) already.

The other thing I would argue is that military expansion still has to be of value. 7-10 cities at by late-industrial seems quite low.

7-10 is all you need to win the Spacerace on a standard type map. More can be better of course, but also, more can be worse.

Once you’ve got currency decent trade routes then each new city should quickly start to make a marginal contribution to techs so your typical fishing villages ought to be reasonable value over the long term . But they will often be bringing you resources that you lack so help ALL the cities.

The point is that you have to fight for these cities. It's costly in the short term. On lower difficulties "catch up" is viable in the tech race. On Deity, it makes the game much harder by falling behind in the first place. So the short term expenses have to be given much higher consideration. Sure, a couple extra fishing villages might be worth a few techs in the long run, but if founding them means falling out of the tech lead (or not grabbing it ASAP) and/or destroying a tech trading relationship, it could very well mean a few times that number of techs in cost.

The other advantage of military expansion is that it takes production and commerce away from a rival so that your relative position improves.

This is true on the very small maps where you can directly impact all your competitors. I specifically stated I was speaking about more standard maps though. When Mansa Musa or Ghandi or even one of the "slow" AI like Catherine or Tokugawa has their own island or is otherwise out of reach until the Industrial Era... you gotta get to the Industrial Era at least as fast as they do. Beating up all your neighbors isn't going to work very well, because relatively, you are losing ground to those you can't directly impact any time you hurt a trading partner or have to back off the tech race for funding cities/units.

The tech race is the game on "non-cheese" Deity for non-Culture victories. Overexpanding will work on Emperor (it's still terribly inefficient IMO). Expansion on Deity needs to be in short, quick bursts with ample time for funding inbetween though.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by fed1943
I read again the whole thread,and then again and again Aeson'post while remembering his game in AU100.So,
Aeson,please:
At least in the begining ,is overlaping the only way to get a viable defense,and so,a must (as the need of few cities to reduce expenses,so lack of resources,but the little value of the creative trait,seems to point)?

AU100 was not a real Deity game for a few reasons, and not a typical map either. The Barbs were not at Deity levels, the AI didn't start with Deity starting units, and so there was ample room for expansion, and lots of extra huts to grab. All of that (and my propensity for doing things in AU games which end up fatal mistakes) added up to my trying a CS slingshot, which I would never suggest for Deity.

Overlapping is generally a good thing for early game defense if you are going with a low military approach (which I did in that game). Keeping your borders small so as to not anger your neighbors too soon can be critical. You can win wars later on... so it's not critical whether it's you or the AI founding "your" eventual cities.

Certainly extra spacing can be good. Uncovering FOW to eliminate barbarians from popping up can be a big deal. If moving a space or two out will eliminate the potential for barbarians completely in that direction, and the site is comparably good, definitely go for it.

I tried to avoid the stop and go problem,replacing it by a balance,but I never got it;does one must just accept that stop and go and try to make each change at the right time?

Yah, I think that's important. Short bursts of expansion when you can afford it. Not so much balance as extremely manic.

[fed1943]

Thank you,Aeson.
Best regards,