Deity level actually quite difficult

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Aeson
You'll still be in a territory hole, but that is the easy part to address, at least once you've addressed the Commerce. (It is fatal to try to address the other way around.) The Deity AI is no better at tactical warfare than at any other difficulty. They have more numbers, but in the end, are not really any better at warfare. They just take a bit longer to deal with, or to build up to.

What % of the time do you normally win at Deity level? I guess more importantly, what % of the time do you think you will win at your "peak" prowess? The reason I ask is I come from SMAC, where I had reached the point that I could win about 50% of the time on Transcend. That was really fun. I had figured this was not possible for Civ 4 until reading your excellent post.

Slight tangent...I tried to play a SMAC game yesterday and gave up before Doctrine: Air Power. I still love the game, but it just isn't comparable to Civ 4!

Originally posted by Aeson
My main point is that if you use GP for tech properly, you don't have to play catch up, just maintain the (very slight) lead.

Would you mind elaborating on your approach to this?

Thanks,
Darrell

[Shaka II]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by couerdelion

Originally posted by couerdelion

Organised’s relative value comes from expansion and this is a lot harder and slower at this level. Financial is always a good trait.

Organized and financial really track each other very well, regardless of the size of the empire. It does get stronger when the effect of cheap courthouses is considered. We had this discussion before though.

Originally posted by couerdelion

Of course, the real reason you don’t want to start a religion is for diplomatic reasons since you need this for tech trading. Vertical research is also important but you’ll still need an initial base from which to fuel it. When you get each new tech you’ll often find that a lot of the AI civs have it already.

That and there are more important techs to pursue like bronze working or animal husbandry or pottery. Let the AI discover religion. Now if you're playing continents, religion doesn't flow as freely, so it's more of an issue than on pangea.

Originally posted by couerdelion

The other thing I would argue is that military expansion still has to be of value. 7-10 cities at by late-industrial seems quite low.

I'm with you, but Aeson actually plays this level. I think it probably depends on whether you're going for a space victory or not. I think 7-10 cities should be enough for space victory, even on deity, if they're nice cities. To add more cities without impacting your science rate, it has to be done in quick bursts, not long protracted wars, and getting theaters/courthouses in quickly to prevent them from starving or being a financial burden.

Also, to support your comment on the value of military expansion, I would note the effect of acquiring more resources. Since pop cap is so limiting on deity, especially by health as Aeson points out, acquiring more resources by conquest alleviates that growth cap. If you have too many happy resources in comparison to health resources, trade for them. Another reason to not use religion in the early game (to promote free trade), unless everyone is of the same religion. In many games on pangea, most are Hindu or Buddhist. Being pagan does have it's benefits.

Now, I wonder about domination on deity? I better work on immortal before I think about deity.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by darrelljs
What % of the time do you normally win at Deity level? I guess more importantly, what % of the time do you think you will win at your "peak" prowess? The reason I ask is I come from SMAC, where I had reached the point that I could win about 50% of the time on Transcend. That was really fun. I had figured this was not possible for Civ 4 until reading your excellent post.

Deity (or equivalent) is definitely much tougher in CIV than any of the past games in the series (including Colonization and SMAC). The odds on Sid in Civ III were probably pretty close, even though the "challenge" was completely different. Use the right exploits, the right map conditions, and the AI will self destruct under the weight of all it's bonuses while your armies are invulnerable from attack. CIV's Deity still has pretty big bonuses, but it doesn't use them to it's own detriment.

Hard to put exact odds on it as I haven't played a many games (with release at least). I can only think of about 5 Deity games that would "count" that I've played. I won them all. (I have lost on Deity... lots... just not with the release version.) The games I won were generally very close though. For instance, my first Deity Spaceship was launched with the other 3 remaining AIs all within 1-5 turns of launching theirs. So definitely could have won/lost that one with a(nother) dice roll. One more AI invasion, or one "dirty" GP coming out wrong could have blown the whole thing. Basically, for Spaceship, it should be close if you do just about everything right. So somewhere around 50:50, but slightly in the player's favor.

Winning by Culture is probably the closest to a sure thing. (And I'm saying this purely theoretically, I've never played a Deity Culture game.) The amount of Culture needed is the same as other difficulty levels, and most of the process in Artist based approaches is internal. As a PHI going with pure Artists, as long as you can hold onto those 3 cities long enough you should win. You could even lose or give away the "temple" cities once you have the Cathedral(s) up. But it's also going to get old fast playing that way every time. Not much room for variation, and when you lose, it will be losing big. Say, 75:25 in the players favor.

Winning by Conquest/Domination is tough, at least on Quick. (I played almost exclusively on Quick, just for time reasons.) Not sure how much difference Marathon would have. Definitely you can move your troops faster relatively speaking, but the real limiting factor is bankruptcy.

No idea on Diplomatic. It could possibly be very cheesey. I think it's more a dice game or Conquest/Domination odds (when you can vote yourself in) depending on how you approach it.

Would you mind elaborating on your approach to this?

It's kinda a simple subject on the abstract level. Just get a tech no one has, or at least that most don't have, and trade it around. To do it well, you need to be at the forefront of the tech race, otherwise you simply can't get anything the others don't already have.

I wrote a somewhat detailed post outlining a possible approach to a specific situation over at CivFanatics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3387583#post3387583

It's dealing with the screenshot in the OP. It likely wouldn't work that way on Deity (higher cost to the player in trades), but it gives an idea about the approach necessary.

To tie it in with the GP for tech, imagine if in that example Mansa didn't have Music. (You should not ever get down by that many techs in the first place though!) If you had timed things right, and got an Artist just at that point, then you would have Music (or at least be very close to it) and another Artist. You could trade Music to Mansa for another tech on top of the other trades, and after grabbing Monotheism from one of the AI in a trade, take another tech with the Artist, perhaps to trade it around later too. (I think Theology?)

Mansa probably has Theology in the example. (No way to know from the screenie... it would be apparent in the game.) If he doesn't, that would give the player the inside track to Liberalism (probably with a Scientist or two to help out). Getting Liberalism first is another real windfall, as you get the free tech on top of the techs you can trade Liberalism around for.

By keeping an eye out for these types of trade possibilities you can really make a killing. The return in beakers, even given the AI's inherent trade advantage, can be several times what you put into it or any of the AI's get out individually. By using intelligent GP aided beelines, you can even manufacture these situations.

(I remember there was a good thread on this here at Poly, about a GP aided beeline to Liberalism? Can't find it right now. Cut out the Oracle part for Deity, the rest still applies though.)

[couerdelion]

I think I’m missing something here. You talk about a slight tech-lead which I simply don’t see. The AI starts with a four/five tech advantage from the start and with their bonuses/more cities/starting workers, they should be researching at twice the rate of the player civ by the time their second city is built.

So the tech lead that they start with should just increase. In order to have a small tech lead, you first need to play catch up in a big way.

I am aware of tech research/trading strategy but simply don't see how those GPs are going to make up all that ground you've lost in the starting phases of the game while you've been research BW and the like.

[uberfish]

Been messing with deity also. Yesterday, I was able to tech trade my way to parity and get to liberalism first even without burning any GPs on techs (very low GP production, food resources sucked) I only fell behind unrecoverably when Kublai and Alex became twice my size from conquering other AIs' land, and my attempt at diplomatic win fell through.

The AI bonus is relatively largest at the start because they start with 2 settlers and 4 free techs. However growth in civ4 is not exponential. The AI has to pay city maintenance too and runs out of space to expand eventually. Give an expert human player the same land, resources and tech as even a deity level AI and the human should come out ahead in the end due to superior city and empire management. The problem is getting there.

The only problem with tech trading is 'we fear you are becoming too advanced' starts popping up quickly, but this can be mitigated slightly by avoiding trading for cheap techs that you could research in 1-2 turns, and by trying to get up to friendly diplomatic relations when they'll be willing to trade more. I think that diplomacy is crucial in order to even stand a chance at deity, unlike earlier levels where you can pretty much ignore it and still win.

great posts Aeson.

[solo]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I think I’m missing something here. You talk about a slight tech-lead which I simply don’t see. The AI starts with a four/five tech advantage from the start and with their bonuses/more cities/starting workers, they should be researching at twice the rate of the player civ by the time their second city is built.

So the tech lead that they start with should just increase. In order to have a small tech lead, you first need to play catch up in a big way.

I am aware of tech research/trading strategy but simply don't see how those GPs are going to make up all that ground you've lost in the starting phases of the game while you've been research BW and the like.

It's tough to get a slight tech lead, but if you can generate a good amount of commerce early, then you should be able to beeline to Alphabet before most or all of the AI, which should allow you to trade for any techs you have bypassed. After that it's another beeline to Education and Liberalism, for another slight tech lead you can use for profitable trades. Later on, if going for a SS win, try Computers first, followed later by the Internet, and the AI will fill in all the techs you've bypassed.

A good leader to try this with is Elizabeth (PHI, FIN), starting near fish, clams and/or crabs. A workboat first will provide quick growth and some extra early commerce. Head directly to Writing and a quick library will allow some early scientists to help speed you on your way and start building points towards that first GS.

If you are first to Alphabet, then you should think about making a slight detour to Literature, since you will also be first there and will probably have a good enough head start to build the Great Library first.

(Most of my experience so far on deity has been in OCC games, but these were all on standard sized maps at normal speed with the default number of AI opponents. I was not always able to get a tech lead, but was able to achieve transitory ones often enough for a few SS wins. If this can be done with only one city, I think it should be easier when more are allowed.)

Another point I'd like to make is that early wonders are not entirely out of the question in deity games, though it may have been easier to concentrate on them in OCC games where I built them. For example, with some help with chops or the presence of Stone, I was able to beat the AI to the Pyramids in more than half of my OCC games. In most games, I was also able to build the Great Library first.

If you start with a religious civ you also have a very good chance of building the Oracle first, although there will rarely be enough time to get the CS slingshot. However, the Alphabet, Code of Laws or Metal Casting are all very real possibities as mini-slingshot techs.

[couerdelion]

After checking through the CF thread I think I understand that the whole idea is to consider stage one of development as being to get yourself out of the initial tech deficit and to do this QUICKLY!! What you lack in research, you make up for with a tech-trading profit and for some time, all your trading will be to play “catch-up” by such trading.

Still not sure where the GPs fit in but my guess is that you uses these largely for lighbulbing techs and then trading these off so that you can stay near to the tech leaders.

It all sounds like you have to do a lot of micro-management and are constantly speaking to all your AI neighbours to check which techs they have and which ones they need.

I wonder with this initial trading strategy here since your biggest concern will be to guess who has the greatest tech advantage. Since you’ll be so far behind the others once you have a tech to trade, you’ll probably see that they all have a lot of the following techs (Archery, Masonry, Mysticism, Animal Husbandry, Sailing, Iron Working, Mathematics). What you will not know is which of them have Calendar, Polytheism, Meditation, Compass, Currency, Code of Laws, Monotheism etc – unless there is other evidence to tell you that they have (eg civics, religions, trade goods).

Here’s where you can make the mistake because you could end up trading with the wrong civilisation and give them a tech which they could use to trade with another civ. Whenever you are behind by a long way you have less detailed information about the full extent of the AIs full hand.

So I guess that being on an island is death at deity level.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by solo


(Most of my experience so far on deity has been in OCC games, but these were all on standard sized maps at normal speed with the default number of AI opponents. I was not always able to get a tech lead, but was able to achieve transitory ones often enough for a few SS wins. If this can be done with only one city, I think it should be easier when more are allowed.)

Surely the AI suffers more than you with just one city

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by couerdelion

So I guess that being on an island is death at deity level.

Yes, if you're on the small island.

Now if it's Mansa who is on a small island.

[solo]

Courdelion,

For maintenance, but only somewhat. The OCC player's main advantage is the ability to build more than 2 national wonders in one city and the ability to build Oxford.

Disadvantages with OCC are:

1) Control of less real estate, impacting health and happiness. There are also fewer resources to trade with. Even with the additonal health resources more cities could provide, health is a major problem in deity games.

2) Fewer total beakers. The non-OCC player can build a science city almost competing on the level of the OCC player's single city. Additonal beakers are available from other cities, and I'd estimate that the non-CC player can end up researching at least 50% faster than the OCC player.

3) Only one thing can be built at a time in OCC and a city optimized for research (as needed early in deity games) will not have great production until much later in the game. In SS games, the OCC player can not delegate the building of cheaper SS parts to other cities, or delegate tasks earlier in the game such as building military units.

4) Much harder to stay alive! Face it, with only one city, you will always be in last place in military strength, branding you as an easy target. Start next to a Toguwaka or even a Caesar and you might as well begin another game! Any mistake in diplomacy is apt to be fatal. This was, by far, the hardest problem to solve in winning in OCC on non-island maps.

As for comparisons, I have only recently been working my way up the levels in non-OCC games, but have found the going much easier so far in Monarch games as a non-OCC player for reasons given above.

About your point about who best to trade with, once I decide to trade away a tech, I'll try to get the most I can out of it by waiting a turn in between each trade of it, just to see what other techs become available from pre-requisites I pick up. I have found that the AI are not as quick to share techs as they were in previous versions of the game, so there is less urgency in getting in all my trades before the tech is common knowledge.

I also tend to steer away from trades from the best AI researchers. The idea it to slow them down, not speed them up! Fomenting wars against them also helps! Many of the technologically backward and backstabbing AI can be kept busy by giving them techs to attack Mansa and the other good researchers you fear the most.

[Mutineer]

About Deity games all of you talking about some special condition.
I found it hurd to get out of hole on lonly island start in standart continent Empiror level game. You can not trade with anyone untill optics.

I have big problems belive that you can choise normal speed, deity level continental game, put everything in rundom and have any disent chance of winning on first rundomly generated start.

[Aeson]

The Deity AI will show up with their Caravels rather early still. Generally not that much later than you can get Alphabet anyways. So definitely stick to an upper path beeline until you make contact with a few AI (or rather, they contact you). You'll still have a very good chance to get into the trading loop using techs hidden behind Alphabet. Don't go towards Optics, because that's the tech path the AI's who contact you will be guaranteed to have followed, and they will almost surely get there before you can.

Being on your own island has it's benefits too. You can expand much more easily, only having to deal with barbs. Until Astronomy you don't have to worry about AI wars at all. Border tensions won't be limiting relationships later in the game.

[KerThud]

Even on lower difficulties--Monarch and Emperor--I seem to have two problems limiting tech trading. Are these still concerns at Immortal and Deity?

1) I try to choose who I will eventually be attacking and who I won't. I only trade with those who I want to maintain good relations with. Even if I don't plan to attack, I still try to avoid the "you traded with our worst allies" diplomatic penalty. These factors limit who I will trade with, so I can't get maximum trade value for my techs.

2) I seem to run into "We fear you are becoming too advanced" after less than a dozen trades." But maybe that's less of a problem on deity when I will likely be lower than second or third in GNP!

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Aeson
Hard to put exact odds on it as I haven't played a many games (with release at least). I can only think of about 5 Deity games that would "count" that I've played. I won them all. (I have lost on Deity... lots... just not with the release version.)

Wow, 5/5 of is really impressive

I guess the best SMAC players were much better than 50% on Transcend. If you are hitting 50/50 on spaceship games, I'll probably top out at Emperor or Immortal.

Originally posted by Aeson
It's kinda a simple subject on the abstract level. Just get a tech no one has, or at least that most don't have, and trade it around. To do it well, you need to be at the forefront of the tech race, otherwise you simply can't get anything the others don't already have.

I wrote a somewhat detailed post outlining a possible approach to a specific situation over at CivFanatics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3387583#post3387583

That's an instructive scenario...however, like some others have posted, my experience has been after a dozen trades or so I get dumped in the WFYABTA bucket and tech trading gets cut off except for the occasional good Friend. You can pull the same trick once or twice, but by then you better make sure you've have caught the AI in terms of empire wide commerce (normalizing for bonuses, of course). I've just reached the point where I can outbuild the AI on Monarch. I haven't tried Emperor yet because every time I select it the boys crawl up inside me and say they aren't coming out unless I click Noble

Vel, if you are still around that would be a great Workshop...how to catch the AI as a builder by the Reinaissance error on the higher levels.

[uberfish]

I'd rate transcend difficulty on SMAC as comparable to emperor on civ4 at best. The AI in SMAC was simply unable to compete effectively after supply crawlers (broken game mechanic) and airpower were out.