Spaceship comparison game

[rjmatsleepers]

The 1st May has come (Ay Caesar, but not gone).

While we wait for the sun to set on the west coast of America, I offer a (final?) comment on the slingshot / cottage spam approach.

I managed to get 100 beakers per turn from Madrid in AD1. I am embarassed to admit that the last contribution was remembering to look at all the sea tiles required to connect my 2 cities and get trade started.

In my various attempts at this, there seems to be a trade-off involving the discovery of sailing. The earlier you discover it, the earlier you can explore and meet the AI. This can give up to 10 (15?) additional techs from trading. But the cost is delaying something else - the Great Library or an Academy or the start of the cottage spam. While the techs involved are useful, (in some cases very useful) they are not on-path for Education or Liberalism. I expect they will all be available for trade reasonably soon once exploration starts. (Did anyone manage to trade for an on-path to Liberalism tech?)

I've found replaying this approach instructive, although I'm not convinced it is the best way to play the early years. But I'm looking forward to finding out (at last) how the game moves forward.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
In my various attempts at this, there seems to be a trade-off involving the discovery of sailing. The earlier you discover it, the earlier you can explore and meet the AI. This can give up to 10 (15?) additional techs from trading. But the cost is delaying something else - the Great Library or an Academy or the start of the cottage spam. While the techs involved are useful, (in some cases very useful) they are not on-path for Education or Liberalism.

Uberfish solved this dilemma in his start: workboat scouting! Much less delay in research/production and the boats will do their 'proper' job once they return.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli


Uberfish solved this dilemma in his start: workboat scouting! Much less delay in research/production and the boats will do their 'proper' job once they return.

I must learn to read more carefully! Right, I'm going to give the CS slingshot / cottage spam / work boat exploration a try.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

OK this really is the last time I post about the CS slingshot/ cottage spam / work boat exploration approach - probably.

Exploring with a work boat is very effective. I've managed to reach AD 1 with more than 100 beakers per turn from Madrid, 25 techs and 4 religions. (Of course, my previous zillion attempts helped. )

Even though the save is not suitable as a candidate for our next turn set, I have learned a great deal. My key lessons are the value of work boats to explore and that pop rushing can be beneficial when used carefully. This start reinforces the well known point that your starting strategy depends vitally on your starting position and leader.

For anyone interested, I attach the save.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
OK this really is the last time I post about the CS slingshot/ cottage spam / work boat exploration approach - probably.

Exploring with a work boat is very effective. I've managed to reach AD 1 with more than 100 beakers per turn from Madrid, 25 techs and 4 religions. (Of course, my previous zillion attempts helped. )

Even though the save is not suitable as a candidate for our next turn set, I have learned a great deal. My key lessons are the value of work boats to explore and that pop rushing can be beneficial when used carefully. This start reinforces the well known point that your starting strategy depends vitally on your starting position and leader.

For anyone interested, I attach the save.

RJM at Sleeper's

Nice job, RJM!

I have learned a lot, too, from what others have posted and have tried another replay from the start making use of an exploring workboat among other things!

What I did to get Philosophy early was to build Stonehenge and and temple to generate that first Prophet early enough to claim Code of Laws just before the Oracle was finished.

I got to Alphabet in 1480 by regular research. Then, instead of taking CS with the Oracle, I took Philosophy in 1400 BC, and switched to Pacifism while researching Alphabet. After Alphabet, I learned Sailing and then started on CS getting the next GP in time to claim this tech, too, by 775 BC.

I was able to build the Great Lighthouse in 425 and finished the Great Library in 225. Another GP was joined to Madrid in 175 to boost hammers and coins.

By 1 AD, I had 4 cities, two more about to be built, about 100 beakers at 80% science, and had accumulated 29 techs.

By this time, I almost had another GP and was close to finishing the National Epic, so I played on a few more turns until 150 AD.

I picked up Monarchy and Currency by trades in 25 AD, Theology by trade in 75 and a Great Scientist appeared in 100 AD, which would have added enough beakers to get Education, but he was used instead for an Academy. I also traded for Construction and a turn later got Compass from a hut and finshed the National Epic, which with 2 science specialists, was putting out 63 GP points per turn in Madrid.

At this rate, the next GP will be coming in about 6 turns. I have also attached a save if it is of interest.

I'd like to continue on with this one but must move onto the next turn set, using one of the original 1 AD saves.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Having looked at these starts, I'd like go with either of them. Mine, solo's and rjm's are riffs on the same theme, but the above two are quite different, especially uberfish's. If it comes to a vote then I'd like to try uberfish's.

I see that AU has launched a game entitled 'Holier Than Thou', so I'll change my mind and vote for mdbill's start.

While we were waiting, I tried Emperor and, after a few false starts, managed to launch 3 turns ahead of my nearest rival.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli


I see that AU has launched a game entitled 'Holier Than Thou', so I'll change my mind and vote for mdbill's start.

I don't have strong feelings on which save we use; I'll go along with the majority.

(And BTW, great job with the philosophy slingshot, Solo. I tried this approach for a while, but gave up on it. I can't remember why! Must be time to have another look at it.)

RJM at Sleeper's

[mdbill]

Here's that 2nd attempt I described. It's pretty far ahead with tech and is producing more per turn.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by mdbill
Here's that 2nd attempt I described. It's pretty far ahead with tech and is producing more per turn.

Very good position - I never cease to be impressed by the results you guys can achieve.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS I've had another look at he save. What particularly impressed me is the impact of the GL and currency when you have a large number of cities. Even some one-horse city in the middle of nowhere can chip in with 9 commerce. In view of the need to expand for other reasons, the GL is a real winner.

RJM

[solo]

Of the original 1 AD saves, it looks like the consensus is that the “best ball” is mdbill’s excellent effort, so I have used that to play on to the next pit stop, which is 1000 AD. My plan was to research to Education next and make an effort to put down enough cities to have a total of 10 by 1000 AD, and my only disappointment was missing out on the location having marble in the south, which Catherine grabbed first. Another objective was to have 6 universities built quickly to allow Oxford as early as possible.

1 AD – Used the GS to build the Academy in Madrid, since an Academy is needed and you can never be sure how fast that next Scientist will be produced. The exploring work boat closest to the fish south of the city on the island was sent that way, and the other exploring workboat was sent towards the fish off the northern coast of the same island, to arrive in time for use by the next city planned for that area. I wanted to claim the whole island before Catherine grabbed a spot on it.

50 Paper

125 hut on island tipped by new chariot, it yields a tech, Drama.

225 Drama & Monotheism to Fred for Construction & 50g (Fred and Liz both have had Currency for awhile, but will not trade it, which is an irritation)

250 Santiago founded on grass next to the Stone on the island. A worker was brought along to speed up Santiago’s early progress. Philosophy & Drama to Catherine for Currency, Horseback Riding & 80g

400 Education, several universities started

425 GS – joins Madrid

450 Salamanca founded on the isthmus north of Barcelona & Seville. This city will make use of Seville’s fish until it has grown well, and nearby forests can be used to chop a library and the 6th university there. It will also claim the wine to the northwest. It also provides a shortcut for ships into the western, eastern and northern oceans.

475 Metal Casting & Philosophy to Kahn for Feudalism & 70g; Philosophy to Cyrus for Music & 90g

560 Gunpowder, having this first will keep the AI peaceful. Murcia founded in the middle of the island to claim the Sugar and Horses there and to keep Catherine off it. In retrospect, now might have been the best time to claim the marble in the south, instead, but leaving spots on this island open might have been too risky.

660 Philosophy to Fred for Compass & 30g

720 Valencia founded south of Madrid to claim the rice and wine there. Again, getting the marble first, instead might have been a better idea.

740 Civil Service & 110g to Fred for Machinery

800 Another GS in Madrid joins the city.

880 Nationalism, start on the Taj Mahal in Madrid. Nationalism to Fred for Optics & 100g. This trade might have been premature if Fred builds the Taj first!

1000 At this time Catherine will trade Engineering & Theology, and has researched Guilds & Astronomy. I have 1 turn to go to learn Constitution, which will allow Representation. I have also researched within 1 turn of learning Liberalism, but will wait to finish it, since none of the AI have Paper yet. My city total is 9 now, with 1 more coming next turn way up north near two fish and some forests there. One workboat is already there, ready to work one of the fish. The beaker total now is 290 at 70% science. There is enough room on the home continent for 3 more cities, and perhaps the barb city to the northwest might be taken to expand in that direction later. The Taj is 15 turns away, but I plan to chop two forests to speed up its completion. A save at this point is attached below:

[Swiss Pauli]

Based on mdbill's start, I built the Academy and researched from Paper to Education. City-wise, I planned to settle the stone on the Western Isle first: I think this could house the Ironworks. I tried to ignore that I knew Marble was located on South Island. My workboats revealed silks on 'mini-Australia' to the east, so that was my next target. Some fishing villages planned on Home Island, but they can wait while I grow vertically to max my EXP trait as far as happiness will allow. All pretty quiet until...

225 - Metal Casting to Cyrus for Currency and 20 Gold. Monotheism to Fred for 50 Gold and Map.

250 – Currency to Cathy for Horseback Riding and 70g.

350 – Horseback Riding to Cyrus for 80g and Map.

375 – Santiago founded on grass next to stone, yielding a useless map from the hut. Workers move to build quarry.

400 – Metal Casting to Hattie for Construction, 30g, and Map. I won’t need to trade my map now.

425 – G Merch joins Madrid. Lighting Machinery not interesting as 2 AI have it already.

450 – Edu completed, on to Liberalism. 3 Unis started.

500 – Curses! Fred has beaten me to the silks, and judging by the borders by 5 turns. Oh well, we move to settle on the Wines on the south of Home Island.

520 – Lit to Kublai for 40g and Map.

540 – Salamanca founded on Wines. Galley takes ‘spare’ Chariot to explore South Island.

620 – Drama from hut on South Island. Marble revealed, Settler now being built. Will build Nat Epic in Barca for a GP farm post Scientific Method.

700 – CS + 150g to Hattie for Feud. I’ve not built many workers as I’ve been maxing growth, so I switch to Serfdom to boost their efficiency. CS to Liz for Compass and 60g.

760 – Spot Cathy’s Settler sailing towards Western Isle, so I cancel OB. Decide that I should speed up my city build plans.

780 – Madrid completes Hanging Gardens. Forgot to note dates, but switched from Lib to Nationalism, then to Constitution.

820 – CS and Drama to Cyrus for Machinery, Map and 20g.

840 – Murcia founded to work Marble and two crabs. Workers have already been prepping the land, so we’ll be hooked up promptly to the Marble. Prophet in Madrid builds Hindu shrine, which boosts my cashflow nicely: I'd assigned a Priest for a couple of turns, hoping that it would have this result - more luck than judgment probably.

1000 – Feud to Cyrus for Optics, Map and 20g. Constitution will be researched by 1040. Cathy’s just started on Paper and she’s the most advanced AI. Next goal is Oxford, but the 3 remaining Unis will be a while yet. Research will aim for claiming Biology as Lib's freebie, also grabbing Economics and Corp on the way if I have time.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=76188_Swiss_Kirk_AD-1000.Civ4SavedGame

[rjmatsleepers]

Already some interesting contrasts in the 3 approaches posted. I'll try to make some more comments when I've had a better look at Swiss Pauli's save.

My Great Scientist builds an Academy in Madrid. I would usually have education as my research priority at this stage, but Solo is going down that route, so I'll try something different - currency (for that extra trade route), compass (for the harbours) and then paper / education. I switch to a settler in Barcelona (I want to keep expanding) and make a few other switches.

AD 25 I decide to trade fish to Lizzie for 1 gold per turn - not very good, but no one else wants fish so I may as well get some benefit from it.

AD 100 Discovery of currency boosts my research by 12 beakers per turn. I decide to continue my original idea and start researching compass. It will be interesting to compare my discovery date for education with Solo's.

AD 125 I decide to trade Currency to Cathy for Horseback Riding + 60 gold.

AD 200 Discover Compass and start researching paper.

AD 275 Harbour in Madrid gives me an extra 14 beakers (but will this be enough to catch up research for Education?) Founded Santiago which increases my costs. In order to maintain a positive cash flow I reduce my research rate to 70% which wipes out the gains from currency and harbour.

AD 300 Hinduism spreads to Toledo which will save me a missionary.

AD 325 I decide to let my Great Scientist give me 1500 odd beakers towards Education which is now 3 turns away. Some tech trading opportunities become available. I swap compass with Freddy for construction + 40 and Philosophy with Hatty for Music + 10.

AD 400 Discover Education and begin construction of a University in Madrid. Start researching Liberalism.

AD 425 Lizzie asks us to stop trading with the Mongolians. I decline, but I sell her CoL for 10 gold to try to maintain good relations.

AD 475 I swap with Kubla for Feudalism. He asks for 3 techs and since he is so far behind I decide to give them to him. I revolt to Serfdom. I also swap paper and construction with Cathy for Machinery - not sure whether this was a good deal.

AD 540 Finish University in Madrid and start a market. Swap compass with Cyrus for Drama + 10.

AD 580 Cyrus offers 10 gold for CoL (cheek!), but I accept.

AD 620 Discover Liberalism and choose Nationalism (after wondering about the printinr press). Start researching Constitution (for Representation)

AD 760 Add my GS as a superspecialist in Madrid.

AD 800 Swap Nationalism with Hattie for Optics + 140 gold.

AD 840 Discover Constitution, revolt to Representation and start researching Printing Press.

AD 860 Swap Paper with Kubla for Theology + 20

AD 900 Salamanca founded

AD 940 Murcia founded.

AD 960 Discover printing press, begin researching Guilds

AD 1000 Sitrep: 1 turn away from Guilds;8 cities (probably enough already); 376 beakers per turn.

RJM

[mdbill]

at 1000 AD I just planted my 8th & 9th cities, so I think I was a little slow on expansion. I am at 427 beakers/turn at 80%. I put an Academy in Seville also. I got Constitution around 800 AD and have Printing Press (for Village+1). 2 turns from Gunpowder. I should have all 6 universities in about 12 turns, so Oxford around 1200 AD. I think I've positioned myself well on that.

We learned from the last comparison that more cities is better, so I'd rather pick someone who settled better than I did. I also really like Swiss Pauli's Hanging gardens, that goes with the Expansion theme. With our trait added to that we should be able to get by on fewer (but larger cities). I also like how you've placed the south city to use both seafood and rice. The Marble island's city is also positioned well.

I like how solo got 3 cities on the west island. Cathy got one there in my game. solo's game also has Gunpowder already.

I'm not a fan of the Taj. Maybe I need to do the math on that, but it doesn't seem worth it. And certainly not without Marble! I also think Madrid has enough things it must build without building things that someone else could build. Madrid should spend all free time with scientist specialists instead of working mines. Once representation and the Oxford kick in, we don't want to have to build things in Madrid, so I'd finish up the Market, and Harbor, etc.

[mdbill]

I just saw your post rjm, sorry I left you out of my last post. Let me check out what you've done....

[mdbill]

rjm, Nice beaker count. And good job going for Constitution/PrintingPress quickly. The bad thing is that Compass, Guilds, Currency, are all free techs from the AI. Catherine even has Guilds already. (Fredrick has it in my game.)

I think the GS would have paid off better as an Academy or joining the capitol. We have a long way to go on research yet.

I also see you've used Liberalism (2100 beakers) for Nationalism (2700). Not a lot of savings there, but still not a bad idea. One reason to do it early like you did would be because you want to switch to Free religion, however, I see you're running Pacifism.