Spaceship comparison game

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by solo
I agree with [RJM] about Currency, but will wait to trade for Compass.

Looking at this game, I agree with mdbill that it was better to trade for currency. Two AI had it at 1AD, and, comparing the logs, RJM researched it in 100, solo traded it in 250 and I traded it in 225.

RJM noted a 12 beaker improvement which over 5 or 6 turns is 60/72 extra towards an 1800 beaker tech. At best it saved 1 turn for spending 4 on reseaching it.

[solo]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli


Looking at this game, I agree with mdbill that it was better to trade for currency. Two AI had it at 1AD, and, comparing the logs, RJM researched it in 100, solo traded it in 250 and I traded it in 225.

RJM noted a 12 beaker improvement which over 5 or 6 turns is 60/72 extra towards an 1800 beaker tech. At best it saved 1 turn for spending 4 on reseaching it.

Right, for the particular situation in this game, when two AI already had Currency, the expectation was high it could be obtained by trade fairly soon. I was assuming RJM's questions were for general advice, so a better answer would take into consideration whether one or more of the AI already have Currency. If none or only one, then you can not be sure how long the delay will be until you can trade for it. If you learn it yourself before most of the AI, it can be used for tech trades, too.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by solo


Right, for the particular situation in this game, when two AI already had Currency, the expectation was high it could be obtained by trade fairly soon. I was assuming RJM's questions were for general advice, so a better answer would take into consideration whether one or more of the AI already have Currency. If none or only one, then you can not be sure how long the delay will be until you can trade for it. If you learn it yourself before most of the AI, it can be used for tech trades, too.

I agree - the key is the AI situation, not how many cities you may have, as RJM wrote. This game was unusual in that all the AI had been met early, so it illustrates the mechanics of researching Currency very well.

Returning to my game, I took Cherokee (and it had fur, not deer) then went to war with Fred. Sacked his city on Marble Island for the loss of a Grenadier and took the crab/copper city (Stutgart) and Silkstown (Essen) without loss then made a favourable cash settlement for peace. Cathy demanded Silks, which I gave. Fred bribed Hattie into war and I lost 2 workboats to pillage.

I waited too long before taking Astro and took Rifling so I missed the free GS from Physics. That's it from me for a while. Enjoy your games...maybe we'll be ready for a shot at Emperor week after next

[solo]

I have played onwards, too and stopped at 1310, the last date in your earlier post. I am setting up now to take that barb city. See you when you return!

I agree that we should try Emperor next and look forward playing.

[uberfish]

I think the second comparison point should maybe be 1500 not 1000, so it gives time for Renaissance tech choice to really kick in. I'll play from mdbill's save tomorrow.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo


Right, for the particular situation in this game, when two AI already had Currency, the expectation was high it could be obtained by trade fairly soon. I was assuming RJM's questions were for general advice, so a better answer would take into consideration whether one or more of the AI already have Currency. If none or only one, then you can not be sure how long the delay will be until you can trade for it. If you learn it yourself before most of the AI, it can be used for tech trades, too.

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli


I agree - the key is the AI situation, not how many cities you may have, as RJM wrote. This game was unusual in that all the AI had been met early, so it illustrates the mechanics of researching Currency very well.

The AI situation is relevant, but surely the number of cities must be relevant as well. Each city gets an extra trade route - the more cities, the more beakers. In this game I got Currency in AD 1 because I switched research from Paper which already about 6 turns worth of research. I'm not sure when mdbill traded for Mathematics, but if it was before he started researching Paper, Currency could have been discovered about 6 turns earlier. In addition to the direct beaker benefit, Currency allows gold trading and enables you to build a market both of which may allow an indirect beaker benefit from a higher research level. And a market may give a higher hapiness cap in your science city enabling a further beaker benefit from additional growth. But of course, (as both of you point out) a crucial question is how long those benefits last - how soon will you be able to trade for it or when will you research it.

Another factor to be considered, is what do I lose by researching Currency. In this case, it delayed Education by at most 5 turns - the time to research Currency. (Actually the delay is less than this, since the additional beakers reduce the research time for Paper and Education by at least half a turn). This presumably delayed a university in Madrid by the same amount - a direct cost of around 10 beakers per turn for 4 or 5 turns. There were (presumably) similar delays in universities in other cities and in building Oxford. Potentially this could be a lot of beakers (perhaps over 200), but I'm not sure that a 4 or 5 turn delay in discovering Education implies a 4 or 5 turn delay in building Oxford.

Ignoring the indirect benefits and costs, in this game I gained 60 - 70 beakers from early Currency and lost 40 - 50 beakers from delayed Education. This difference would have been greater if Currency research had been started earlier.

However, the benefit depends on having trade routes to the AI. With only a couple of cities and only domestic routes the benefit would have been smaller, and perhaps non-existant.

So, my tentative conclusion. Swiss Pauli rightly points out that in this game, researching Currency does not advance Education. None the less, the beaker benefit from early Currency exceeds the beaker loss from delayed Education.

RJM

[mdbill]

RJM, here's the problem with your logic. You have to count the entire cost of Currency as a loss too on top of all the delays for University and Oxford, etc. It's really not even a close comparison. It's only close if you say the guy that got Education first had to go and research currency later. He doesn't, he gets it free. So you are way behind by 5 full turns of research. Your gains from early currency have to be large enough to make up that ground.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by mdbill
RJM, here's the problem with your logic. You have to count the entire cost of Currency as a loss too on top of all the delays for University and Oxford, etc. It's really not even a close comparison. It's only close if you say the guy that got Education first had to go and research currency later. He doesn't, he gets it free. So you are way behind by 5 full turns of research. Your gains from early currency have to be large enough to make up that ground.

You may be right. I'll have to think about it for a while.

RJM

[solo]

Another, not as obvious, benefit of getting Currency earlier is that the AI that lack it have been accumulating gold for you, that you can take by trading the tech to them. Currency to them earlier increases their income, too, which provides additional gold for you to sell your techs for afterwards. This makes it easier for you to run at 100% science.

Even so, the AI are usually quick enough to Currency, that in most situations, it's best to wait a bit and get it for free.

uberfish has a good idea in that we should make the next break point at 1500 instead of 1000 AD. 1000 AD seemed a little early for the next comparison to me anyways, and two of us have already played beyond 1000 AD already. Do others agree?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo
Another, not as obvious, benefit of getting Currency earlier is that the AI that lack it have been accumulating gold for you, that you can take by trading the tech to them. Currency to them earlier increases their income, too, which provides additional gold for you to sell your techs for afterwards. This makes it easier for you to run at 100% science.

Even so, the AI are usually quick enough to Currency, that in most situations, it's best to wait a bit and get it for free.

uberfish has a good idea in that we should make the next break point at 1500 instead of 1000 AD. 1000 AD seemed a little early for the next comparison to me anyways, and two of us have already played beyond 1000 AD already. Do others agree?

OK, the only thing I can think of that might rescue early Currency is if there were another tech you could trade for that was reasonably useful and trading for Currency meant waiting for this other tech. But I've never met that situation.

I don't mind playing through to AD 1500, but I'll go back to the mdbill save and replay from the begining. Hope that's OK.

RJM

[solo]

Sounds okay to me, RJM.

[rjmatsleepers]

Here is my effort. I tried waiting to swap for Currency and delaying completion of Liberalism. But the random gods were not smiling I finally got currency in AD 350 and the best tech I could get for Liberalism was Military Tradition which is not much more costly than Nationalism and (IMO) a lot less useful. I was a bit more dedicated in my pursuit of Oxford which I completed in AD 1310. I swapped for any tech that became available (except that I would not trade Paper, Philosophy or Education until I completed Liberalism). After completing Liberalism, I kept my research at 90% by selling a tech to any AI civ that had more than 100 gold to spare. My research path was:

Paper AD 25
Education AD 400
Nationalism AD 760 (After researching Liberalism to within 1 turn)
Constitution AD 940
Astronomy AD 1050 (Perhaps a mistake - Printing Press better)
Liberalism AD 1080 (for Military Tradition!)
Printing Press AD 1110
Guilds AD 1140
Banking AD 1160
Economics AD 1200
Corporation AD 1240
Chemistry AD 1280 (Not sure about this one either)
Steel AD 1330
Replaceable Parts AD 1360
Steam Power AD 1400
Assebly Line AD 1470

RJM

[mdbill]

from 1000 AD ....
I got Chemistry and took Steel free from Liberalism.
I waited to get Guilds free from trading and then charged ahead to corporation.
I waited as long as possible to trade for Astron (to protect my Colossus investment). I got Sci Method before it, but I wanted to move on to Bio/Physics, so I traded for Astronomy.
I traded for Replaceable parts while researching Biology, Physics, Electricity and I'm 3 turns from Radio.

Oxford 1190 AD

I'm holding at 9 cities (probably not enough, but no plans for any more) and about 1000 beakers. I'm gonna try to make the 9 cities work. I'm laying down some farms and workshops, don't usually do plains/workshops, but it's really the same as a plains/hill/mine...4 hammers.

I ended up going with the Nat. Epic in the capitol. I like to run my scientists there because of Oxford, and I already had the GLibrary. I think it was a decent choice. I just popped out my 9th GP.

[solo]

I decided to continue from my 1000 AD save, since I think it offered the best chance to complete Oxford first, which I finished in 1120 AD. I had 10 cities by then, and although some were not positioned as well as Swiss Pauli¡'s, the 3 on the island to the west became very productive and the one in the far north having 2 fish was another very good one.

I did not research Banking--> Corporation myself, since the AI always learn these in time for trades. Although the GM from Economics is a temptation, I think the same logic we used to defer Currency applies to these techs, too. Progress to Rocketry is quicker when they are bypassed.

Instead, I researched almost to Steel before Cathy was willing to part with Astronomy. After trading for that I researched Scientific Method and used Liberalism to snatch Physics. Then it was straight on to Computers, which I learned by 1490. Steel will be finished in 1510, and then an Ironworks can be built in Madrid. Techs through Corporation were picked up by trades, as expected, as well as Divine Uselessness.

Wonders built along the way were the Hanging Gardens in 1160, right after Oxford, and since the Taj was on the back burner, I continued it and was able to finish it in 1340. It provided a nice boost, just when needed to speed the way to Computers. Another benefit of the Taj were the piles of gold several AI were left with after I had finished it first. Several quick trades were in order to relieve them of their extra cash.

Mdbill's National Epic in Madrid may allow him to close in quickly. I built this in my capital in the first game, but felt that it was less suitable here, since Madrid did not have enough food to afford as many specialists. I let my own GP production fall off quite a bit, although I am still in Pacifism.

My plans to take Cherokee and found another northern city have been delayed, but I still plan for a total of 12, which is probably enough to keep research going quickly enough later. I see that Swiss Pauli picked off a few more AI cities, so it will be interesting to see if these extra ones make a difference.

[mdbill]

Originally posted by solo
I decided to continue from my 1000 AD save, since I think it offered the best chance to complete Oxford first, which I finished in 1120 AD.

Question: Your 1000AD save has 3/6 universities. About 20 turns to go to get to 6 maybe 15 if you chop. Then ~10 turns more for Oxford. How did you get Oxford built in 1120? That's only 12 turns away right?