Spaceship comparison game

[Swiss Pauli]

Concerning my game, my Western Isle settler will go where the chariot now is and, on Home Island, another settler will go to the northwestern promontory where the city can share the planned workboat from the other northern city in its early years.

Comparing with the other two saves, it seems to me that Cathy must have hutted Astro in solo's game. Lucky her! Not sure whether Cathy/Liz could have reached Marble Island without going via Spanish waters. Closing my borders stopped Cathy settling on my target sites. I saw her coming because I don't fortify my sentry chariots - they get no defensive benefit anyway.

I'm behind on beakers but Rep will help fix that. Yet I'll still be way off mdbill's huge amount! My best part so far has been my trading, especially CS: CS, Drama (which was free), and net 50g yielded Feud, Compass and Machinery (and a Map). I re-traded Feud for Optics, 20g and a Map.

mdbill - can you post a save?

I must also confess that I have played on. However, as I'll be offline from tomorrow for 10 days or so, I won't play out the next phase(s).

[solo]

Swiss Pauli,

Too bad you will be away. If you have played on, perhaps you would like to post the subsequent portion of your game. I may also play on from my own save at 1000 AD, although mdbill's current beaker total is a little scary!

RJM,

I also made that trade of fish for 1 gpt! It can always be cancelled later when LIz has some more gold to spend.

While I agree in principle with mdbill, about not researching techs the AI already have, I found myself wishing that I had researched Currency earlier, instead of waiting for the trade much later. I find that the extra trade routes plus the ability to drain the AI's cash by selling old techs provide enough compensation, since the science rate can often be maxed out afterwards.

mdbill,

Yes, please post a save of your great turn set! I have to agree that building the Taj may be a bad adventure, so may cash in the hammers already invested for some sorely needed cash. I wish I could have traded for Machinery earlier to get an earlier start on Printing Press.

[mdbill]

I think my beakers just look artificially high because I'm already running Representation and I have recently built my Universities and switched from the mines to Science specialists. So far, I vote for Swiss Pauli's game. Although I was hoping for someone with 12 + cities. Maybe another game will come in.

My save...

[Swiss Pauli]

I was just about to write up my progress when mdbill posted his save, so I'll look at that first!

Having looked at mdbill's save, I must say I'd forgotten that border bump trick! National Epic in Madrid? I take it you're not one for building Wall Street? Cathy's city on Western Isle will clearly be a real pain.

I'll go and write up my game - which finishes at an interesting decision point, but will obviously be full of spoilers.

[Swiss Pauli]

1010 – Close Borders with Fred cos I spot a Settler heading my way.

1020 – Kublai demands Philo but I declined. No leg-up to Lib for any AI in this game. Cathy asks for 120g, which I dole out gladly.

1040 – Constitution completed. Switch to Rep. Started Gunpowder. Trade Nat to Cathy for 220g, Music, and Engineering. Zaragoza and Valencia founded.

1050 – Kublai proposes Music and 10g for Theo which I accept to boost relations, but it doesn’t work.

1060 – Reopen borders with Fred

1070 – Cathy completes Paper.

1090 – Cathy demands Edu. Not today, madam.

1110 – Ankgor Wat in Madrid. And a GE who insta-builds Taj (I could do with the boost to complete my Unis).

1160 – Start Sci Method. Must have researched Chemistry since Gunpowder but forgot to note dates.

1200 – Nat to Fred for Guilds and 240g. Nat to Hattie for Divine Right and 100g.

1210 – Nat to Liz for Banking and 20g. One turn away from Sci Meth, I switch research to Econo: no AI has reached Edu yet and I don’t want to obsolete G Library until absolutely necessary for my Biology grab.

1220 – Cathy completes Edu. 15 turns taken, so I’ll allow max 10 for Lib. In this time I can get Econo, Corp, Sci Meth and Lib. Pamplona founded, so we’re dun settlin’. Unless I find a tasty Copper site. I might even take a marginal one.

1250 – Econo’s free G Merch joins Madrid.

1280 – GS produced but saved til Sci Meth finished.

1290 - Corp researched.

1300 – Sci Meth. After much debate, GS put towards Astro.

1310 – Liberalism researched and Biology as the Free Tech.

Madrid will start Oxford after completing its bank.

One dilemma is about Fred. He’s already grabbed my grass cottage on Marble Island and he’s got a Copper/Crabs city and the Silks-town. All near me and far from his core. But they’re all on hills and I haven’t got a barracks. I might attack the Barb State for the XP. And the deer and Iron…

The other dilemma is about production/research balance. We don’t have so much production, so I think we’ll need to run State Property and USUF in order not to finish research ages before SS parts are done. But that’s some way down the line yet.

Made a schoolboy error in not building Taoist and Conf Monasteries in Barca. As a GP farm, missionaries would have been its ideal build.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=76188_Swiss_Kirk_AD-1310.Civ4SavedGame

[mdbill]

Yea, National epic might be a mistake, but I just started it, might kill it. I've rarely considered Wall street. Too many banks needed. But that might be a mistake on my part again. I'm used to OCC. Just build it all the capitol!

[solo]

Originally posted by mdbill
Yea, National epic might be a mistake, but I just started it, might kill it. I've rarely considered Wall street. Too many banks needed. But that might be a mistake on my part again. I'm used to OCC. Just build it all the capitol!

Me too, used to OCC!

I don't consider Wall Street either, but am thinking that the Ironworks might be good to build Apollo and other big items very quickly. By now, I think it's a little late to think about the National Epic, but I'll have to see your save first.

Took a look and am still impressed, but I have played on a bit and think I might be first to finish Oxford.

One minor note: My mine next to the river in Madrid turned into Iron during the last turn set. That gives production there a little boost!

[rjmatsleepers]

Currency? At the moment, my feeling is that with (say) 5 or more cities, there may just be a slight advantage in researching it yourself because of the additional trade route per city.

Compass? I like the benefit from harbours, but you have to take time out to build them as well as researching the tech. On balance, I suspect waiting to trade with the AI is worth it.

Liberalism? No I didn't finish Liberalism because I wanted Free Religion. I've simply never tried this trick of waiting to complete it to get a better free tech. I need a quick tutorial. You have to check each civ on the tech trading screen each turn - right? And when there is a civ that no longer wants to trade for one of the techs needed for Liberalism, do you complete it straight away, or is there a further period you can wait? [Edit] See below. [/Edit]

Liberalism free tech? Nationalism was the most expensive tech available and left me 1 tech away from Constitution (and hence Representation). I thought about Printing Press because of the research boost, but I decided there was not quite enough of a boost to make it worthwhile.

Free Religion vs Pacifism? I'm pretty sure that at some stage the points required for your next GP mean that Free Religion helps your research more than Pacifism does. But I've no idea where this point is! Any ideas?

Use of GS? I already had an Academy in Madrid. I usually add a superspecialist rather than go for an academy in another city. I ought to check each time, but I sometimes forget. In this case the benefit from Education was too attractive - a university in Madrid and Oxford in due course. Actually, the delay in building the 5 other universities probably means I would have been better to add a superspecialist in Madrid.

Sorry about the lengthy post - it helps me get a better handle on the various strategies.

RJM

PS I've just noticed Swiss Pauli's comments on when to finish Liberalism - 10 turns after Cathy learns Education. This is just a "best guess", right? Also, how do you know when Cathy learns Education?

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

PS I've just noticed Swiss Pauli's comments on when to finish Liberalism - 10 turns after Cathy learns Education. This is just a "best guess", right? Also, how do you know when Cathy learns Education?

Actually, I messed this up. A tech disappears from the trade screen when the AI is too far along to be interested in buying it. My error was forgetting this and assuming Cathy had finished Edu when it vanished. It took maybe 12 more turns for Lib to appear as a possible trade(!) to Cathy, so I was far too conservative, because Edu unlocks Lib so it's clear when she had just landed Edu.

This is where note taking really helps, so you can guesstimate research time based on the how long it took for the previous tech, how many beakers the next tech requires, and a couple of turns buffer to be safe. It is a bit risky - the AI could lightbulb the tech - but that's the fun part!

[solo]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Currency? At the moment, my feeling is that with (say) 5 or more cities, there may just be a slight advantage in researching it yourself because of the additional trade route per city.

Compass? I like the benefit from harbours, but you have to take time out to build them as well as researching the tech. On balance, I suspect waiting to trade with the AI is worth it.

Liberalism? No I didn't finish Liberalism because I wanted Free Religion. I've simply never tried this trick of waiting to complete it to get a better free tech. I need a quick tutorial. You have to check each civ on the tech trading screen each turn - right? And when there is a civ that no longer wants to trade for one of the techs needed for Liberalism, do you complete it straight away, or is there a further period you can wait? [Edit] See below. [/Edit]

Liberalism free tech? Nationalism was the most expensive tech available and left me 1 tech away from Constitution (and hence Representation). I thought about Printing Press because of the research boost, but I decided there was not quite enough of a boost to make it worthwhile.

Free Religion vs Pacifism? I'm pretty sure that at some stage the points required for your next GP mean that Free Religion helps your research more than Pacifism does. But I've no idea where this point is! Any ideas?

Use of GS? I already had an Academy in Madrid. I usually add a superspecialist rather than go for an academy in another city. I ought to check each time, but I sometimes forget. In this case the benefit from Education was too attractive - a university in Madrid and Oxford in due course. Actually, the delay in building the 5 other universities probably means I would have been better to add a superspecialist in Madrid.

Sorry about the lengthy post - it helps me get a better handle on the various strategies.

RJM

PS I've just noticed Swiss Pauli's comments on when to finish Liberalism - 10 turns after Cathy learns Education. This is just a "best guess", right? Also, how do you know when Cathy learns Education?

I agree with you about Currency, but will wait to trade for Compass.

Yes, you have to check every turn to see if anyone has learned Education yet. Depends on who learned it, the game speed, and difficulty level to judge how much more "safe" time is left. In this game, I think I would wait about 10 turns, or so, and pull the trigger just after researching a prerequisite of the most expensive tech you think you have a chance for.

For the free tech, I usually pick the most expensive one on the list, but usually will not go for Nationalism, since the AI are always quicker to research that than the other ones. Nationalism is a good one to trade for a bit later.

I'll usually wait on Free Religion a bit, since upkeep is a bit higher if your military is minimal, and make the switch right after getting the next GP. With a Philosophical leader or with National Epic, I'll wait even longer.

It's hard to judge the best use of a GS, and this decision also gives me fits! If in doubt, though, I'll join it to my capital or build an Academy in another city with the second best beaker count, if this count is a good one. I think "burning" GS's for a tech is only best in special situations or late in the game, where there isn't enough time for an "investment" to pay off.

[mdbill]

GS : specialist or additional Academy?

Under Representation, a specialist is 9 beakers + 200- 250% in the capitol, so let's say 30 beakers/turn in the post-Oxford part of the game. (plus the hammer if that matters.)

So, if another city will produce 60+ BASE commerce (before %'s), an Academy is probably the way to go. Late game it will probably be 100 base commerce so the Academy gets you 50 beakers/turn. (And culture if that matters)

Now, using the GS to cut 10+ turns (or is it 20?) off education might be the best way to use it. I can't figure that out. Surely if the the goal were shorter like if we were going for Diplo victory and just racing to the UN. With such a long way to go, I'd guess it's better to use the GS for one of the long term choices.

[mdbill]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Liberalism free tech? Nationalism was the most expensive tech available and left me 1 tech away from Constitution

At a minimum, you should have researched Nationalism and gotten Constitution free.

Don't think it's tedious to watch the trade screen. You don't have to even think about it this early. They won't even have paper, or philosophy, much less Education. And it takes them forever to get edu (at this skill level).

[mdbill]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

Free Religion vs Pacifism? I'm pretty sure that at some stage the points required for your next GP mean that Free Religion helps your research more than Pacifism does. But I've no idea where this point is! Any ideas?

Another very tough one. Let me think out loud...

Let's say you wait until you're at 500 beakers (right around the time the Oxford pops out). That means ~200 beakers is your base, so FreeRel. gets you 20 beakers/turn. That's say 25/turn on average over the next 50 turns. == 1250 beakers. That's about 1 great person if it's used for research. Keep in mind GP are usually more powerful than that.

So now, we need to figure out how much earlier we get our GP in Pacifism. If we get anywhere near generating a whole extra GP in the next 50 turns, then it's a no-brainer to say in pacifism. Complicated. I'm not going to work it out now, but here's something to remember:

It's more important to stay in Pacifism if you're NOT a philisophical leader. Pacifism only effectively boosts your birthrate 50% for these leaders.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli


Actually, I messed this up. A tech disappears from the trade screen when the AI is too far along to be interested in buying it. My error was forgetting this and assuming Cathy had finished Edu when it vanished. It took maybe 12 more turns for Lib to appear as a possible trade(!) to Cathy, so I was far too conservative, because Edu unlocks Lib so it's clear when she had just landed Edu.

This is where note taking really helps, so you can guesstimate research time based on the how long it took for the previous tech, how many beakers the next tech requires, and a couple of turns buffer to be safe. It is a bit risky - the AI could lightbulb the tech - but that's the fun part!

What do we know about when an AI civ will trade for a tech it's researching? I assumed that once it started researching the tech, it wouldn't want to trade. But from what you say there is a period while the tech is being researched, that the AI will none the less trade. Presumably it is to do with how few turns remain until the tech will be discovered. Perhaps the rule of thumb is that you complete researching Liberalism as soon as the AI will no longer trade for it - or is that too risky?

RJM

[mdbill]

too risky I think. At this skill level, you can find a nice big free tech without cutting it that close.