Spaceship comparison game

[rjmatsleepers]

Solo, I haven't had a chance to look at your saves yet, but the results are very impressive - well done.

I'd forgotten about those three smiley faces in Representation - which means I also forgot to switch civics . I'm used to not switching until I discover Civil Service, because the benefits of the earlier possibilities don't seem to over ride the turn of anarchy. I will try it again.

Mind you, I usually switch to Representation at some point, so the lack of religion will impact then.

I'll try to sort out my log and zip the saves to post later today.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS I've now looked at your save from AD 1. I can't believe how much less I did in the same time period. I have a lot to learn from this.

[rjmatsleepers]

Spoiler information follows.

Here is the log from my first attempt. I attach my AD1 save - Poly said my zip file was too big to attach. NOTE: I have modified my XML to give me some different cities and to "correct" a spelling mistake. This will show up as odd city names when you look at the saves with unmodified XML. As far as I know this is simply cosmetic.

4000 BC New London founded at start position
3920 BC 26 gold from hut
3720 BC Mysticism->Meditation
3640 BC Budhism founded in a distant land; switch research to Polytheism
3400 BC Complete warrior; start Stonehenge
3000 BC Polytheism->Priesthood; Hinduism founded in New London)
2840 BC Sailing from hut
2720 BC Priesthood->Meditation
2640 BC Meditation->Writing
2600 BC Complete Stonehenge; start Oracle
2120 BC Writing->Alphabet; Judaism founded in a distant land
1960 BC Tacitus reports that we are the most cultured Civ
1640 BC Great Prophet discovers Code of Laws; Confucianism founded in New London
1600 BC Oracle completed; choose Civil Service as free tech; revolt to Bureaucracy and Caste System; begin building a library.
1120 BC Alphabet->Literature
775 BC Literature->Bronze Working; Complete library; start Great Library
750 BC Add Great Prophet to New London as super specialist; suspend GL to build worker
575 BC Bronze Working ->Wheel (Discover copper west of New London in fat cross!)
475 BC Wheel->Pottery; Parthenon built in far away land
350 BC Pottery->Agriculture; Christianity founded in a distant land; Toynbee says we are 5th wealthiest civ
225 BC Agriculture->Paper (for education)
50 BC Complete Great Library; start settler to begin expansion

AD 1 I have a lower power rating than I like, but probably due to lack of tech trading opportunities. Otherwise, seems OK.
AD 25 Build Kong Miao in New London
AD 125 Camelot founded
AD 350 Paper->Animal Husbandry
AD 400 Socrates builds an acadamy in New London
AD 450 Animal Husbandry->Education
AD 520 Avalon founded
AD 540 Colossus built in far away land
AD 620 Convert to Confucianism
AD 820 Livy says we are the smallest Civ; New London expansion pops hut for drama; Mansa Mansa
discovers us and we begin tech trading
AD 840 Aristotle offers to discover Education, but I've already reseached most of it so I decide to hang on.
AD 980 Education->Liberalism; Aristotle gives us a head start towards printing press.
AD 1120 Liberalism->Printing Press; Choose Nationalism as free tech; revolt to free religion; found Leicester
AD 1140 The Romans discover us and we swap technologies.
AD 1170 Printing Press -> ?
AD 1330 Astronomy-> Constitution
AD 1370 Bath founded
AD 1430 Constitution->Gunpowder; Revolt to Representation
AD 1460 The Aztecs discover us - no techs to trade!
AD 1470 The French discover us - also no techs to trade!
AD 1480 Gunpowder->Scientific Method
AD 1550 Scientific Method->Physics
AD 1580 MM adopts Emancipation unhapiness steadily grows over the next 70 years.
AD 1590 Physics->Rifling
AD 1600 I forgot to note when I built Oxford, but it was probably around this date.
AD 1620 Rifleing->Steel
AD 1650, Montezuma attacked me with a small force of knights and catapults which my riflemen beat relatively easiliy.
However, he destroyed my fishing boats which brought on problems with heatlth and forced an end to some useful trades.
I was also forced to lower my research rate to 90%
AD 1655 Steel->Democracy; revolt to Emancipation and Free trade
AD 1700 Democracy->Artillery
AD 1750 Give Monty tech for peace treaty. Begin rebuilding shattered economy.
AD 1765 Cancel emergency wheat deal with Louis and return to 100% research.
AD 1800 Rocketry->Electricity; begin to build Apollo
AD 1812 Electricity->Radio
AD 1832 Radio->Computers
AD 1842 Chairman Mao declares war on us
AD 1852 Computers->Assembly Line
AD 1854 Monty declares war
AD 1866 Assembly Line->Industrialism
AD 1870 destroyed Aztec city with unpronounceable name
AD 1874 Peace with Mao
AD 1884 Industrialism->Satellites (discover a couple of sources of aluminium)
AD 1890 London was captured by the Aztecs and I decided to abandon the game

[solo]

RJM,

Your opening reminds me of some of my OCC games, where the CS slingshot works very effectively. You were very quick to Bureaucracy, which means much more in OCC, but on the minus side you fell way behind in expansion. I think the main advantages of Bureaucracy come later on, when the capital has accumulated a lot of GPs and has built Oxford and the National Epic. In my game London was putting out over 1000 beakers once it was full size as well as being my best production city.

I think cities #2 and #3 should be put down ASAP, since the hit on science is not too much with just 3 cities, but having extra cities can spread around the work in constructing early wonders and allows you to control additional resources earlier. I think three good cities without Civil Service will outperform one very good one with the 50% bonuses of Bureaucracy.

Taking the religious path early to get the CS slingshot can also delay cottages, roads and other early terrain improvements. I remember some of my OCC games where I hadn't even done any of these things until I was researching Education!

The home continent was just the right size for 6 good cities, so it was very nice to get these all in place without having to battle the AI for living space. All we lacked was coal, but I was able to trade for that with Catherine in time to build railroads and to get some good use out of the Ironworks. (She cancelled the deal after about 20 turns, but I had had it long enough to do myself a lot of good.)

[uberfish]

Launched in 1886. I built pyramids - great lighthouse - great library too and stayed in representation throughout. The computer built colossus in 225 BC (!!) so I missed out on that. Mansa Musa built two cities on the north of my island early, so I kicked him off with macemen. I couldn't resist taking his lands over later on with grenadiers/redcoats, but although the conquest got me coal and a 120 hammer Ironworks city in Timbuktu once I'd converted it, it may have cost me time in the long run. Solo's peaceful approach and focused beeline to physics worked better in this game because he could trade for a lot of midgame techs which I had to research myself.

more detailed log:

Research up to 1AD: Agriculture, Masonry, Bronze, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Sailing, Alphabet, Mysticism, Alphabet to MM for Polytheism + Hunting + AH, Literature, Mathematics, Literature to MM for Monotheism + Priesthood, Music, Music to MM for Currency + Meditation + 90 gold

Capital builds to 1AD: Worker, Warrior (3) to grow to size 3, Settler, Workboat (scouting), Pyramids, Lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, Granary, Library, Great Library (Engineered), National Epic (due in 2)

Research post 1AD: Iron, Drama, Metal Casting, CoL, CS, Paper, Machinery, Compass, Education, Construction, Optics, Calendar, Liberalism (1100AD) -> Astronomy, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Printing Press, Nationalism, Constitution, Democracy, Economics, Replacable Parts, Rifling, Steam, Railroad, Scientific Method, Physics, Biology, Electricity, Assembly Line, Radio, Computers, Artillery, Combustion, Industrialism, Plastics, Robotics, Fibre Optics, Fission, Fusion, Satellites, Refrigeration, Genetics, Ecology

GPs:
Engineer 600BC (Great Library)
Merchant 225BC (Specialist)
Artist 1AD (Free from Music, Specialist)
Merchant 50AD (Specialist)
Scientist 275 AD (Academy)
Merchant 560AD (Specialist)
Scientist 760AD (Academy)
Scientist 1010 AD (Academy)
Scientist 1150 AD (Specialist)
Scientist 1300AD (Specialist),
Merchant 1420AD (Free from Economics, cashed for 1700 gold to fund the war with MM)
Scientist 1490AD (Specialist)
Scientist 1610AD (used for Physics)
Scientist 1630AD (Free from Physics, used on Biology)
Scientist 1655 AD (used for Electricity)
Scientist 1750 AD (saved for golden age),
Engineer 1842 AD (Space Elevator)
Engineer 1854 AD (Free from Fusion, used for golden age)

Huts: 26, 76, 59 gold.

[rjmatsleepers]

Great result, Uberfish. Did you keep an AD 1 save that you could post?

Solo, thanks for the comments. I wonder if there is someway that the Pyramids can be combined with a slingshot to give early Representation and Bureaucracy? Stonehenge is good for getting some early GPs to use for CoL and CS. But to get CS you mustn't research Masonary (IIRC). I suspect delaying the Pyramids that long means that the AI gets them. So it seems that it's either Pyramids or slingshot. If you research Monarchy, does this put CS back as a GP tech?

RJM at Sleeper's

[fed1943]

CS slingshot+Pyramids?Yes,it's possible,but with the Oracle.I cannot say yet what are the necessary conditions.High commerce,for sure.Stonehenge is not necessary,religion takes care of cities'expansion.
Best regards,

[solo]

Excellent result, Uberfish, considering your bad luck in having Mansa stealing some territory. Producing a big enough army to conduct a war was sure to slow down your research, and you lost out on the chances for many tech trades. In my game, Mansa was able to supply most of the techs I bypassed on my beeline. Every tech traded for means fewer turns of wasted research.

RJM,

Combining the Pyramids with the CS slingshot might be possible if all workers help chop the Pyramids, but this is a bit risky, since you can never be sure how soon one of the AI will start on the Pyramids, and whether the builder has stone and/or the Industrious trait. In some games this wonder can be delayed a long time, and in others, you must build it ASAP to get it first. The Pyramids are so useful that I don't like taking chances of losing out on it, and the sooner it is ready the sooner your cities can continue to grow. Masonry is also needed for the Great Lighthouse, also extremely useful. The AI are almost always quick to build the GL, so if you want it yourself, you must start on it early.

Instead of the CS slingshot, I like to build the Oracle (if still available) to speed my way to another expensive tech, often grabbing Metal Casting or Alphabet with it, depending on the situation. If you can get Alphabet without researching it, Literature and the Great Library will come about 20 turns earlier. With the Great Library, CS comes quickly enough through regular research.

At Monarch level, you may actually be better off letting one of the AI build the Oracle. They may use it for a tech you can trade for later, rather than you having to research it yourself. Since it's no problem getting a huge tech lead over the AI at Monarch level, it pays to provide them with every opportunity to acquire techs you lack yourself, since trading for a tech is always quicker than researching it.

So I wouldn't even think of trying for the CS slingshot and the Pyramids. Attempting this reminds me of a Wall Street saying that goes something like this:

"Being a Bull can make you some money and being a Bear can make you some money, but being a Pig is a sure way of losing everything."

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo

So I wouldn't even think of trying for the CS slingshot and the Pyramids. Attempting this reminds me of a Wall Street saying that goes something like this:

"Being a Bull can make you some money and being a Bear can make you some money, but being a Pig is a sure way of losing everything."

I'm replaying the game using your approach. (I tried to match your log, but I gradually lost touch with it after failing to get a tech from one of the huts.) I'm way ahead of where I was, although I've (accidentally) deviated from the research path I meant to follow.

So, this approach works well with a coastal site with stone nearby. What variations do you make on non-coastal sites and without stone?

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Even without stone, I'll still make an attempt to get the Pyramids, except on the highest levels, when I can not hope to finish it quickly enough. I'll build it near a big forest and go lumberjacking until it's done! If the Pyramids is unavailable, I may try for a religion or head for Monarchy earlier for alternative ways to get more happy citizens and continue growth.

In a situation without many coastal tiles I may research Priesthood more quickly to try and get an expensive tech using the Oracle (instead of going to Sailing early for the GL), or move to Mathematics quickly for the Hanging Gardens, followed by Currency to get gold trades activated. Non-coastal starts are apt to lack fish, clams and crabs, and aqueducts and the HG help manage health.

However, the very first priority is still Alphabet, Literature and the Great Library. Musn't forget that science comes first!

[uberfish]

I don't have a save, but I had 3 cities about size 8/6/2 in 1AD. My expansion was slowed a little by having to build some axemen to deal with barbarian incursions since my forest hill warriors unluckily died. This let mansa beat me to the horse site by a couple of turns, which forced me into at least a limited war. However, I think going for the conquest cost me in the long run, as I could have just saved myself time by using MM as a trading partner.

I've played two monarch space race comparisons now, and find I launch earlier on Immortal difficulty, believe it or not. I've come to the conclusion that a tech trading strategy to acquire as large a total number of beakers from the AI as possible is the key to earlier spaceship launches.

[solo]

I have also seen better times come with higher difficulties, the reason being the higher AI research rate. More techs can be picked up by trades or by the Internet if it is built, rather than losing turns researching them yourself.

[solo]

RJM,

I tried another game going for the Oracle, but this was not as successful. I think the Oracle may be better suited for games where many AI are encountered early, allowing more useful trades using the Oracle tech.

Afterwards, I tried several Monarch games at marathon speed and have achieved much better dates, with my best in the late 1600's. You might think that the increased research costs (e.g. Bronze Working as the first tech usually takes about 50 turns!) would slow things down too much, but the extra turns in a marathon game kick in early enough to make a big difference.

Marathon is also much more suited to expansion through conquest, too, since units are relatively cheaper and can even be used in a war or two before becoming obsolete. If you research to superior units ahead of the AI, taking their cities is probably the most efficient way to expand to the optimal size empire needed for building a SS quickly.

[rjmatsleepers]

At the moment, I'm concentrating on the best strategy and leadership traits rather than exploring different game speeds. I had begun to suspect that military expansion was going to be an important factor in an early landing, so your comments on Mararthon are interesting.

As far as Oracle vs Pyramids are concerned, if the Oracle is used as part of a CS slingshot, the direct increase in beaker count from early Bureaucracy seems to be better than that from early Representation. However, Representation gives you the smiley faces which may allow faster expansion and more beakers indirectly. In addition, Pyramids gives you the Great Engineers who can get you more wonders, whereas Oracle gives you the less valuable Great Prophets. And the slingshot distorts your research pattern while the Pyramids allows early Bronze Working. On the other hand, the slingshot should give you at least 1 or 2 religions.

I can't do the analysis, but the proof of the pudding seems to be in the eating. Of course in my recent games, I've been getting starting positions with few trees and no access to stone. Sometimes I wonder if this game can read my mind.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

Finally got round to having a go at this and I admit to struggling to adjust to 'normal' as opposed to epic speed. Missed the Gr Lib by miles as I thought I had much more time before the AI's finish date. Pyramids got built pre-Oracle...

Made a terrible error by not switching to BUR after CS Sling: barbs were at London's gate so I had to delay by a few turns and then I utterly forgot about it for 10 or more turns.

Just completed Lib sling, but feel I'm missing a good Ironworks city. Switched to free religion which I hope will buy some time for me to build a military deterrent cos the AI is getting Astronomy.

Overall, I thought I'd struggle to launch as early as solo and uberfish, but I've made some bad mistakes so I don't see myself lauching until mid-C20th.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Finally got round to having a go at this and I admit to struggling to adjust to 'normal' as opposed to epic speed. Missed the Gr Lib by miles as I thought I had much more time before the AI's finish date. Pyramids got built pre-Oracle...

Made a terrible error by not switching to BUR after CS Sling: barbs were at London's gate so I had to delay by a few turns and then I utterly forgot about it for 10 or more turns.

Just completed Lib sling, but feel I'm missing a good Ironworks city. Switched to free religion which I hope will buy some time for me to build a military deterrent cos the AI is getting Astronomy.

Overall, I thought I'd struggle to launch as early as solo and uberfish, but I've made some bad mistakes so I don't see myself lauching until mid-C20th.

Did you keep an AD1 save? It would be interesting to compare the positions.

RJM at Sleeper's