Spaceship comparison game

[zabrak]

Launched in 1853 AD. Executive summary: Swordsman then Samurai-Catapults wipeout of neighbors, peaceful tech domination until launch. A somewhat longer explanation follows, and a detailed log follows that.

One more thing above the fold: unlike my standard practice, I saved regularly, and kept the saves at the end. I'd be amenable to going back and replaying to get screenshots or try different approaches, for experimental purposes.

SPOILERS:

I got beat (I prefer to think due to some lucky hut pops by the AI) to an early religion, the Pyramids, and the Oracle. The single most important strategic move of the game was my decision at a little before 1 AD to start an early Swords-and-Axes-only war with France to take the Pyramids and the holy cities of Hinduism and Judaism, despite Louis' numeric supremacy. I must have caught him just before his cultural defenses bumped, since Paris was only 60%, Orleans and Lyons were only 40%, and the rest were 20% or 0%. This went remarkably well, and helped me recover mightily from a lackluster start. I took out HC immediately afterwards with the same forces, capturing the Great Lighthouse in the process. I waited until Samurai and Catapults to take on Julius (while I'm not sure about this, I think this was my biggest strategic error. He had virtually no Praetorians, and only slightly better cultural defenses. At the very least, I could have taken a big bite out of his territory early, then waited for Samurai or Catapults to finish the job), and kicked him off the continent in one go. I immediately booted Louis and HC afterwards. At this point the game was for all intents and purposes over since, despite my fears, Bismark and Washington simply weren't large enough to be a threat. Add the early diplomatic bonus with Bismark for converting him to my religion (astonishingly, he hadn't founded one, despite getting the Oracle and the Parthenon), and it was a fairly simple game of economic management.

I don't have any excuse for the late launch other than laziness. I probably could have launched sometime in the mid-to-late 1700s, but the almost complete lack of AI pressure on any front (plus the removed pressure of not having to plan for an offensive war) really slackened my play. For example, I used representation-bureaucracy-emancipation-mercantilism-organized religion for virtually the entire game. I made the calculation that cash-rushing and foreign trade just wasn't going to be as economically valuable as the beaker bonus from representation and mercantilism (which I think is defensible), but then why am I sticking with emancipation and organized religion instead of caste system and pacifism? And since a) I'm not cash-rushing, b) my distance maintenance and mercantilism upkeep are only about 40 gpt, and c) I have no military purpose for spies, why I am racing for Communism? I also found myself obsessed with trying to culturally flip the various flyspeck cities that Washington kept founding in neglected areas (the desert southeast of Paris, and Madagascar), which, although occasionally successful, proved to be something of a distraction. In general, I'd say my biggest frustration with the AI's programming is when it's in situations like this, it keeps trying to found marginal and likely economically draining cities in far-flung places, instead of planning an invasion to kill the leader (although this, of course, has been a problem since Civ1).

Here's the log, with a few comments on tactical errors (or justifications of apparent errors) -

1 Found Kyoto in place, 1st citizen on Silks tile, start on Hunting, Work Boat
3 Sailing from goody hut 887 from kyoto
7 Barb warriors from hut 7 of dyes
8 warrior survived, took woodsman I (1.3 hp, 3/5 xp)
9 Hunting complete, start animal husbandry
13 met huayna capac
14 work boat completed, 1st citizen on fish, started worker
18 met louis
21 met julius
23 buddhism founded elsewhere (washington, I find out later)
24 hinduism founded (louis)
26 complete animal husbandry, start mysticism
27 worker completed, start scout, start pasture
29 survived panther attack, took woodsman II (1.2 hp, 5/10 xp)
31 2nd citizen starts on forest plains hill
33 pasture complete, 2nd citizen on cows, start road on cows
34 scout completed, lighthouse start (d'oh! should have looked more closely at my happiness cap and started barracks, but it was just for 1 turn)
35 complete mysticism, start mining, switch to stonehenge (still planning CS-sling, foolishly, but the great prophets came in handy later)
36 archery from goody hut east of kyoto (scout pop)
37 start road 7 of kyoto
38 3rd citizen starts on spices
41 start road 78 of kyoto
43 mining complete, start bronze working, start mine 78 of kyoto
44 4th citizen starts on plains forest hill
48 4th citizen switches to mine 78 of kyoto
54 5th citizen starts forest plains hill, 3rd citizen switches to silks (stop growth at happiness cap)
59 stonehenge complete, start work boat (for exploration - the scout was getting hemmed in by barbs and cultural barriers at this point)
60 complete bronze working, start pottery
62 judaism founded (louis), workboat complete, start barracks
65 barracks complete, start archer
68 archer complete, start settler
73 complete pottery, start writing, settler complete, start archer
75 osaka founded 666669 of kyoto, os-start granary, ky-archer complete, ky-start worker (HC had taken the copper-stone site to the west, which suprised me)
88 pottery complete, start iron working
99 oracle completed in germany
101 pyramids completed in france
107 IW complete, start agriculture, os & ky start lots of swordsmen (bad luck: low happiness cap, and good luck: local Iron, combine to force an early invasion force)
110 tokyo founded 8899 of kyoto (gems, silks, and on the Seine, hoping for a religion draw from louis and a later super-science city)
114 complete agriculture, start meditation
120 complete meditation , start priesthood
125 Captured barb city Illinois, 88888777 of kyoto (was blocking my Seine access to louis, and was actually pretty well-placed, resource wise)
126 Parthenon built in Germany, priesthood complete, start alphabet (d'oh! should have started polytheism to allow the coming great prophet to buy CoL - just a stupid oversight on my part)
132 judaism spreads to tokyo, conversion
134 great prophet born, switch to polytheism
137 declare war on louis (here we go!)
138 raze marseilles
140 capture paris, raze tours, convert to representation, slavery, ky-resume growth, lighthouse
141 (1AD) here's the status: cities- kyoto:6, osaka:4 (wheat, horses, pigs, coastal), tokyo:3 (rice, gems, silks, Seine river), illinois:1 (barb capture, dyes, rice, bananas, seine river), paris:8 (Pyramids, Hinduism holy city); tech- 5 turns to polytheism & prophet-CoL; military- 9 swords (heavy CR promos), 1 axe, 7 archers; diplomatic- war w/louis, open borders with hc & julius; wonders- built stonehenge, captured pyramids, germany has oracle and parthenon (must have marble); civics- representation, slavery
145 raze chartres, complete polytheism, prophet pops CoL, resume alphabet
148 raze orleans
154 capture lyons (Judaism holy city, in the middle of the flood plains zone, nice cash city site), trade wheat for gold with julius
155 HC completes Great Lighthouse (machu picchu, on the southern coast)
161 complete alphabet, start metal casing, peace with louis (mathematics, masonry, convert to paganism)
163 declare war on HC, raze vilcas
164 raze corihuayrachina, switch to monotheism (julius wants CoL for it, I had hoped to get julius in on HC war to lower the cost, but cost for war is CoL, which I'm unwilling to give to an Org leader with Praetorians. Perhaps masonry before peace with Louis would have netted me mono, but then I'd still be 5 or so turns behind the metal casing completion without it, and with the war weariness to boot)
166 christianity founded (julius, ravenna on Madagascar)
170 capture machu picchu (Great Lighthouse), complete monotheism, resume metal casting, switch to org relig
171 great library completed in germany
173 raze huamanga
174 taoism founded elsewhere (peter, I find out later)
176 edo founded 77444 of kyoto (finally I get my copper-stone site)
178 capture cuzco (perhaps I should have razed it, since I was getting big and it has no particular value, but I have a soft spot for former capitals)
181 raze tiwanaku, peace with HC for currency, 100 gold
184 complete metal casting, start compass
188 julius completes sistene
193 complete compass, start civil service
195 osaka completes hanging gardens (I decided that paris doesn't have the production potential to be my great engineer site)
202 kyoto completes chichen itza (mostly for the great prophet points, partly to deny the defensive bonus to julius, though that turns out not to have been necessary)
205 buddhist shrine complete elsewhere
208 forbidden palace complete in lyons
210 complete civil service, start construction, complete colossus in machu picchu, switch to bureaucracy
215 complete construction, start machinery, start building massive catapult wave
223 machinery complete, start optics, steadily upgrade all the swords to samurai as the catapults get into place
227 notre dame complete in germany
229 declared war on julius
230 captured arretium (1144 of paris, for the two gold mines), raze cumae
234 raze pisae
235 capture antium (sistene)
238 capture neapolis, complete optics, start engineering (brief detour for hagia, for the great engineer bonus and because I've got a lot of jungle to chop)
241 capture rome
242 raze circei, peace with julius (literature, theology, 90 gold, convert to org rel)
243 complete engineering, start paper
244 declare war on HC & Louis
246 capture ollantaytambo, raze avignon
249 raze vitcos, russia completes taoism shrine
250 capture rheims, meet bismark and convert him to judaism,
251 raze besancon, wipeout louis, russia gets angkor wat, complete paper, start monarchy (decide to hold up the liberalism race to grab islam, as I was worried about bismark getting it and killing my diplomatic advantage)
253 complete monarchy, start divine right, peace with HC (calendar) (taking calendar was probably a minor strategic error, in hindsight. It obsolted my stonehenge which slowed cultural expansion a bit, and by capturing cities, I had plenty of already-built plantations)
254 great merchant popped in lyons (should have been prophet, only 7% chance of merchant, delayed my second shrine by 50 turns), settled in osaka, meet peter and washington
261 complete hagia sofia (osaka)
264 capture bactria (barb) on madagascar (in the middle of all the wines - I figured I could expand the borders quickly enough to hold the whole island, which was incorrect and turned into an unfortunate obsession)
265 declare war with julius, raze satricum
266 complete divine right (islam founded in bactria), start education, complete national epic in osaka
267 capture ravenna (holy city of christianity on madagascar)
275 raze setia, wipeout julius, declare war on HC, gave calendar to bismark, trade theology and literature for feudalism with peter
276 raze vitcos, raze vilcabamba, wipeout HC
278 complete spiral minaret in kyoto
280 complete education, start philosophy
284 complete philosophy, start liberalism, great engineer popped (osaka) (didn't switch to pacifism and caste system because I had several buildings in relatively unimportant cities left to construct, and I figured slavery and organized religion would be helpful - this was stupid)
285 gave divine right to peter (tribute, figured getting him on my side would be a good counterweight to washington, who was clearly the only possible threat at this point)
291 completed liberalism, took astronomy, start nationalism, trade sheep + furs + 6 gpt for cows + pigs + wine with bismark, trade philosophy for music with bismark, trade cows + pigs for sugar + 5 gpt with peter
297 completed nationalism, start guilds
299 complete taj mahal (antium) rushed with great engineer, guilds complete, start banking
301 complete versailles (antium) (nice palace/FP/versailles placement kept my distance maintenance to only 25 gpt or so through most of the game)
302 complete banking, start printing press
306 complete printing press, start constitution
309 great prophet born (kyoto) (finally)
310 complete constitution, start democracy
312 hindu shrine (paris) built
316 democracy complete, start replaceable parts, switch to free speech, emancipation, mercantilism (continuing the cash-rush strat and the GP-heavy strat confusion noted elsewhere)
318 trade banana + fish for ivory + 1 gpt with peter
321 replaceable parts complete, start economics
325 economics complete, start corporation
329 corporation complete, start scientific method
333 great engineer popped (paris)
334 scientific method complete, start communism
339 communism complete, start chemistry, trade paper + divine right + 200 gold for gunpowder + horseback riding with bismark
343 chemistry complete, start steam power
347 steam power complete, start assembly line, complete kremlin
353 assembly line complete, start biology, los angeles revolts, disbanded
355 complete statue of liberty (machu picchu)
359 complete biology, start steel
362 complete steel, start physics
366 complete physics, start railroad, great scientist > academy in kyoto, great engineer popped in paris, yakutsk revolts, disbanded
370 complete railroad, start electricity
376 complete electricity, start radio
381 complete radio, start combustion
382 great engineer popped (osaka)
383 complete combustion, start industrialism
388 complete industrialism, start plastics
391 complete eiffel tower (machu)
393 complete plastics, start flight
398 great engineer popped (ravenna)
399 complete flight, start rifling
401 complete rifling, start rocketry
404 complete pentagon (osaka)
405 complete rocketry, start medicine
409 complete medicine, start computers
411 complete computers, start robotics, complete broadway (antium)
418 complete robotics, start refrigeration, popped great artist (edo - another weird 7% chance one, should have been engineer), settled in bactria
419 complete 3GD (rome)
422 complete refrigeration, start genetics
427 complete genetics, start satellites, great engineer popped (osaka)
428 complete space elevator - osaka (2 great engineers)
432 complete satellites, start fission
437 complete rock n roll (antium)
438 complete ecology, start fiber optics
442 complere fiber optics, start fusion
445 popped great merchant in antium (yet another weird one, should have been artist), settled in lyons
447 complete fusion, start mass media
449 complete mass media, start composites
453 complete UN, convert peter to judaism for 1530 gold (this was silly, just waiting for the engine to finish, and I'd never built the UN before, even in Civ3)
454 complete composites, start future tech
46? launch

[uberfish]

Done now. Summary:

Founded 4 cities myself.

Relatively slow start. Oracle to CoL and Prophet to CS, 2nd GP to Shrine, therefore very late Academy.

Didn't go to war until I had Samurai and a strong economic base including a Shrine. This allowed me to keep all captured cities while never dropping under 60% science rate. I easily conquered the entire continent with Samurai produced in my core, including 4 cities on the island.

Final civics: Representation, Free Speech, Emancipation, Free Market, Free Religion

We left Elizabeth in the dust. Launched in 1776.



Full log:

4000BC - I'm not really familiar with the difference between Epic and Normal speed openings,

but with fish available at the start site I see no reason to move. Founded on spot. Animal husbandry is two techs away, so clearly the first build should be a work boat. The plan is to turn Kyoto into a commerce centre with early cottages and the possibility of doing a CS slingshot. This is a position where going for quick bronze and chopping makes a lot of sense since fish is already available to fuel early growth and there are several forests that need to be cleared out anyway to make room for grassland cottages, mines and later on plantations. Tech plan for now will therefore tentatively be mining, bronze, pottery. Send warrior up and then clockwise.

3920 - Sailing from hut.

3520 - Mining in. Start on bronze. Scout from hut.

3280 - 48 gold from hut.

3120 - Hostiles from hut. Lose both scout and warrior. Buddhism founded somewhere, no contact with AI yet, Hinduism one turn later.

2840 - Worker done -> warrior, BW coming in soon

2760 - Idle worker a couple of turns so that it'll chop the river forest in time to coincide with Kyoto's growth to size 3, start pottery

2560 - Kyoto grows to 3, warrior chopped -> second warrior in one turn, then worker which gets a chop too

2360 - Start settler. Chopping this.

2320 - Hut, 33 gold

2280 - Pottery comes in and I start on a river cottage. Also find bronze to the west, unfortunately it's a bit far to establish a colony there. This looks suspiciously like an island start but at least there are good resources. Set research to Agriculture.

2200 - Contact with Louis and Capac - I guess it's not an island after all - and lose both of my warriors to barbarians.

1950 - Agriculture in, start Animal Husbandry (sigh)

1900 - Osaka founded 5 north, on Rice and Gems.

1825 - Contact with Caesar.

1675 - Animal Husbandry completes. Horses revealed to east. The pace of religion founding is very slow so I might still have a shot at the Oracle. Many prospective city sites will also need border expansions, start on Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood

1600 - Judaism founded by Louis since he converted to Org Rel, he has the Hindu holy city too.

1400 - Priesthood in 4, move workers in position to start help chopping the Oracle in Osaka

1200 - Priesthood in -> Writing

1150 - Tokyo founded 4E 1N. Possibly not optimal in the long run but I need the horses fast and the city will be good for production.

1025 - Writing -> Alphabet

960 - Whip Oracle to completion. I take Code of Laws and send the free missionary to Rome, the plan is to create conflict between Rome and France. He converts. Osaka will also build a temple soon and assign a priest so I can get 2 great prophets for the CS prophet trick and the Shrine.

740 - Convert to Confucianism myself as it spreads in capital.

560 - We finish alpha. Louis demands tribute, give him meditation. Tech to iron working, only Caesar knows it and he won't trade.

500 - Caesar converts to Judaism. Start building more missionaries

340 - Iron working in and Kyoto has iron. set research to Polytheism -> Literature

40 - Literature in, start great library. CoL to Caesar for Mathematics and Hunting (skipping Masonry due to Great Prophet research.) Research set to Calendar

60 AD - I get my first Prophet. Burn it on CS, switch research to that.

80 AD - Caesar re-converts to Confucianism.

140 AD - CS finished, switch to Bureaucracy and research back to Calendar.

240 AD - Calendar -> Metal Casting

330 AD - Our religion mongering pays off as Louis declares on Caesar.

370 AD - Metal Casting -> Masonry

380 AD - Masonry -> Machinery, sell HC polytheism for 130 gold.

470 AD - HC reopens borders. HC declares on Caesar too.

530 AD - Machinery -> Construction

570 AD - Caesar isn't doing very well in the war, although he has Iron he has failed to build enough Praetorians. Although Louis razed one city and made peace with him, HC has just taken a Roman city. I declare on Louis now, as although HC shares a religion with him he's unlikely to declare on me while he is still fighting Caesar.

580 AD - 2nd prophet out, it builds the Shrine.

590 AD - Construction -> Currency. HC also has 390 gold to offer for CoL, which I'll take to fund axe/sword upgrades.

650 AD - Currency -> Compass. Louis has a lot of axes, swords and spears, but they're just free experience for samurai.

720 AD - Compass -> Optics. Louis offers 540 gold and archery for peace. No deal, as I've lost a total of zero units in the war with him. Peace between Inca and Rome

740 AD - Switch optics to drama as I'm getting close to unhappiness in two of my 4 core cities from war weariness from taking French cities.

780 AD - Currency and Construction to Caesar for Monarchy and Monotheism. Revolt to Hereditary Rule and Organized Religion. I don't need to use theocracy or vassalage as my units can just get easy experience from the French. Also I'm doing all my military production in my core cities and I want captured cities to produce buildings and missionaries.

840 AD - Paris captured. Drama was completed at some point.

870 AD - Optics -> Paper -> Education

940 AD - Great Scientist makes Academy in Kyoto. I actually lose a Samurai to an Archer at 96% or something.

950 AD - France is eliminated. He never got to Feudalism.

1020 AD - Paper and Construction to Washington for Feudalism.

1040 AD - Circumnavigation.

1045 AD - Literature to Caesar for 140 gold. He has annoyingly cancelled open borders. I plan to take at least HC's lands and possibly Caesar's too but I plan to wait for astronomy to attack HC so I still have foreign trade.

1050 AD - Forbidden Palace done in Orleans in former France, science rate back to 70%.

1060 AD - HC cancels open borders. I declare war on him. He has longbowmen, but unfortunately for him I have quite a few samurai up to city raider 3. Education -> Philosophy -> Liberalism.

1150 AD - Liberalism done taking Astronomy as free tech, do some resource trades with Washington, Peter and Bismarck. Set research to Printing Press, as my research goals now are Democracy/Biology.

1160 AD - Capture Cuzco, losing the 2nd samurai of the game in the process annoyingly.

1195 AD - Education to Peter for Engineering

1200 AD - Printing Press -> Nationalism.

1230 AD - Reduce HC to one city on an island, and get Guilds from him for peace. Prepare to attack Caesar.

1240 AD - Nationalism -> Constitution. War on Caesar

1280 AD - Constitution -> Democracy

1300 AD - Caesar is reduced to 1 island city too, sign ceasefire to move troops.

1325 AD - Music and Drama to HC for Banking

1335 AD - Democracy -> Economics (Washington already has it, but I might as well get all the revolts done at the same time)

1355 AD - Economics -> Corporation, revolt to Universal Suffrage, Emancipation and Free Market. Free speech can wait until the towns are grown.

1390 AD - Corporation -> Sci Meth

1400 AD - Eliminated Caesar.

1410 AD - switch to Free Speech now.

1415 AD - since Washington is nowhere near Physics, I think it's safe to research Gunpowder and Chemistry first before I obsolete the great library.

1420 AD - Taj completed, Golden Age

1440 AD - HC eliminated. Securing the island gives me wine and crab which I didn't have otherwise.

1445 AD - Statue of Liberty completed.

1450 AD - Sci Meth -> Biology

1475 AD - Biology -> Physics

1520 AD - PHysics -> RP

1535 AD - RP -> Electricity. Revolt to Representation and Free Religion taking advantage of the 26 free specialists I now have from SoL. I have only used rush buying to accelerate the growth of newer cities and don't think any more is going to pay off versus just being in Representation now.

1620 AD - Computers. Just recording keystone techs now.

1654 AD - Assembly Line

1660 AD - 2nd Golden Age (all GPs are being saved for these now) to help build factories

1664 AD - Railroad

1684 AD - Plastics

1694 AD - Rocketry

1700 AD - Robotics

1730 AD - Fusion

1732 AD - Trigger a 3rd and final golden age.

1746 AD - Genetics, Apollo and Space Elevator complete on the same turn, begin building the entire spaceship simultaneously.

1750 AD - Ecology, Research finished.

1776 AD - Spaceship launched.

[rjmatsleepers]

Warning - may contain some non-specific spoilers

Some intersting contrasts - I like Solo's idea of appeasing the AI while picking up territory elsewhere. I shall give that a try.

The more general approach of using miltary might to subdue the local AI and then switching to research to launch the spaceship raises a question in my mind.

In the good old days of Civ II, we would sometimes have a house rule that we had to keep a spotless reputation throughout. Should we consider a houserule in some of our games that we should not attack the AI?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: Warning - may contain some non-specific spoilers

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
In the good old days of Civ II, we would sometimes have a house rule that we had to keep a spotless reputation throughout. Should we consider a houserule in some of our games that we should not attack the AI?

I'd not be too keen on such a rule because it's too strategically restrictive: I might as well have given up in the current game after my early mishaps had I been banned from attacking the AI. And, generally speaking, it might be more interesting to compare the peaceful with the conquest approach. Someone like Alex (PHI, AGG) could be ideal from this regard. Toku doesn't favour diverse approaches so well because he's such a good conquest leader (ORG, AGG and a superb UU).

[solo]

Re: Warning - may contain some non-specific spoilers

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Some intersting contrasts - I like Solo's idea of appeasing the AI while picking up territory elsewhere. I shall give that a try.

The more general approach of using miltary might to subdue the local AI and then switching to research to launch the spaceship raises a question in my mind.

In the good old days of Civ II, we would sometimes have a house rule that we had to keep a spotless reputation throughout. Should we consider a houserule in some of our games that we should not attack the AI?

RJM at Sleeper's

Given the fact that there is usually less real estate available for new cities and given the AI tendency to crowd the human player's position (especially with those stupid marginal cities), I am also against the restriction that you suggested. I also agree that the more strategic options there are, the better it is for interesting and competitive comparison games.

I think the best way to handicap the human players would be to increase the difficulty level a notch or two.

However, if a future game were set up using the "always peace" option, I would very much enjoy participating in such a contest.

I have continued on to 1000 AD and will post details a bit later today. I'm hoping for a launch in the mid 1700's, which I think is quite attainable under epic speed. Some spoiler info to follow (By the way, what is the point in hiding spoiler posts? Why not just announce that spoiler info follows? Players who are going to read spoiler info before playing out their games are going to do this anyways, whether spoilers are hidden or not.):

I also liked my idea of trying to take over the island to the east until I noticed that Capac had already taken one of the choice spots there. I ended up crowding my two new cities closer together than I would have liked on the northern coast and going after the central barb city for my sixth. My opinion now is that conquest of AI cities bogs down research too much to make the extra cities gained from it pay off, so I will stick to the peaceful approach unless I am proven wrong.

[solo]

Spoiler info follows detailing my progress up until 1000 AD:

The Great Lighthouse was completed in 80, and the Great Library was completed in my capital in 230. Earlier I had a slight scare, since a barb axeman had appeared and headed towards Kyoto which was only defended by a warrior at that time. I had to interrupt what I was doing to rush a better defender.

Civil Service was researched by 350 and I still hadn’t been able to trade for Iron Working, so decided to research it myself rather than wait any longer. I dislike suspending research deeper into the tech tree, because every detour adds another delay to the SS launch date, but I felt swordsmen were best suited for taking the barb city I wanted on the island.

In 410 I decided to use a GE to rush the Parthenon, hoping this would speed up GP production. At epic, the GP costs increase and even though there are more game turns, it seems that fewer are produced than at normal speed. Meanwhile two new cities, Edo and Satsuma were founded on the island bringing the city total up to 5. When the barb city of Phrygian was taken in 610 I had 6 cities, enough to produce the 6 universities needed to permit Oxford in the capital. This idea of limiting expansion to 6 cities worked well in my last game, so I continued with it in this game, too.

Another tech I couldn’t trade for that I wanted soon was Currency, so this meant another detour (and delay) to attain it before moving on to Education, which was discovered in 780. By this time, each city had a library, so each started on universities immediately. More delays occurred when I ended up having to research Compass, Metal Casting, Machinery and Optics, techs I would have usually been able to trade for while heading onto to Liberalism, but by 1000 AD I was close to learning that tech and was only a few turns behind my pace in the previous game, where having Elizabeth (and a good tech trading partner) had made early research go a lot faster.

I figured that during the 1100’s the slower epic pace would kick in and allow me to catch up. During this period, I had remained on good terms with the neighboring AI, but Louis had become quite dominant after the earlier AI wars and was starting to become a real concern even though his pace of research had ground almost to a halt. By this time I had made some trades and had refused enough of his unpalatable demands to become less than his favorite neighbor.

[rjmatsleepers]

General (non-specific) spoiler info follows

I launched in 1935, so I don't think you will have much to learn from a detailed log of my mistakes. I'll outline my approach under a few headings and perhaps pose a strategic question or two. (Incidentally, I wonder if the changes to Representation and chopping in the latest patch will cause a re-think of the early strategy.)

General Strategy

I concentrated on early expansion to the nearby island + a dash for iron working and swordsmen. I tried various strategies up to AD 1, but I felt most comfortable with getting swordsmen quickly in order to deal with my neighbours.

Wonders

I built the Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Oxford, Apollo, Ironworks and the Space Elevator. I think I should have built more - particularly some of the national wonders. What wonders do you favour for a space-ship game (and why)?

City specialisation

I had 6 cities. My science city (Kyoto) was churning out over 700 beakers per turn at the peak of the space race. I was quite comfortable with this given the non-financial leader and the non-ideal start position. I had 3 production cities, but one of them wasn't too hot. I had a mini science city that also tried to generate hammers. My 6th city was a culture flip from the Romans. It had a lot of difficulty maintaining it's borders. After rushing a university I left it churning out defensive units - which means I should have built a barracks, but I didn't. I usually try to have a 7th city to avoid building a forge in my science city. In this case I thought of going for colossus, so I built a forge, but then changed my mind - or did someone beat me to it?How many cities do you favour and what degree of specialisation?

Great people

I deliberately got the GPP points for a great scientist to build an Academy. After that I didn't actively manage Great People production - I let them fall out wherever the game dropped them. My great merchants were added to my science city (possibly a mistake); most of my great scientists taught me a new technology; one great engineer built me Oxford, another helped with the space elevator; the third (from fusion) was added to one of my production cities. I have a feeling that positive management of GP production and their effective use will be a major factor in an early launch. What do you do about Great People?

The science slider

I tried to maintain the slider at 100%, although I sometimes dropped it to 90%. At 10% tax I was generating a surplus (banks, etc). At 0% tax my income came from merchants added to my science city and selling techs. I had a lot of difficulty working out who my rival was. For a long time I didn't sell to Louis, because he was top of the power graph, but in fact it was Peter and Washington who were my nearest rivals. What %age science do you like to run with?

Civics

My civics were representation, bureaurcracy, serfdom, free market and free religion. I switched to emancipation when someone else adopted it and I dipped into democracy when I wanted to rush the final university and Oxford. I have previously favored pacifism over free religion; I'm not sure where the balance lies. How do you manage your civics?

Relations with AI civs

Generally I gritted my teeth and gave them whatever they asked for. This didn't stop Louis attacking me twice and Bismark once, but it did mean I could call in a war ally (Julius until he was wipped out). My feeling is that you need to have a good defence rather than relying on diplomacy. Any thoughts on managing the AI?

And finally

This was an interesting exercise. I wouldn't have chosen this leader and conditions, but it was fun to explore some different strategies.

RJM at Sleeper's

[zabrak]

Those are some interesting questions, RJM@S. I'll hold off on my attempts to answer until I'm done with my current project, which I think will be useful.

What I'm doing now is replaying from 1300 AD (which is the point I nailed down Astronomy from Liberalism, wiped out the neighboring civs, and had most of my civics options open) in two different ways: a GP-heavy approach and a cash-rush approach. I'm currently about 20 turns or so away from launch on the GP game, and it's working out much better than my first run-through in which I stupidly mixed those two approaches. Frankly, I was just stewing for the past few days about how slack (and publically so!) I played the tech race, so this is kind of cathartic.

The other problem I'm encountering is that I'm not particularly experienced with the actual space race. I have a good deal of experience getting up to that point so I can use WWII-era units -- bombers, transports, marines, tanks -- for domination wins, but I'm not really sure how to optimize the research order for the SS techs. The upshot is that I'm not sure I'll be able to claim one approach is better than the other (although certainly better than a dumb mix) based purely on launch date.

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: General (non-specific) spoiler info follows

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
(Incidentally, I wonder if the changes to Representation and chopping in the latest patch will cause a re-think of the early strategy.)

...

This was an interesting exercise. I wouldn't have chosen this leader and conditions, but it was fun to explore some different strategies.

RJM at Sleeper's

The new patch will definitely require a major rethink of strategy. Off the top of my head, IND will be much more useful and/or you'll need access to the right building material (stone/marble) to chop in those early wonders.

The Kremlin's been downgraded too, so that changes the buy-rush efficiency as well as the changes to Rep you mention.

Returning to my current game, Shangian flipped to Louis in the mid C17th and on the same turn he demanded horses. I declined, of course, and he switched to Theocracy and Vassalage: he means to fight! Given that I saw him coming from a long way off, I was able to do a bit of Caravel and Missionary spying which revealed his attack groups. Stupidly he plonked some units right outside his target city, so I took the initiative and declared war on him, eliminating his small attack stack.

Unfortunately, Washington is ploughing through the tech tree at a good pace, so I'm not sure whether I'll win, even if I wipe out the French. My first target is the Jewish holy city of Lyons, but it would be nice to get all the way to Paris and take Stonehenge, the Oracle, The Great Library, The Parthenon, Notre Dame, and the Hindu shrine.

[uberfish]

Re: General (non-specific) spoiler info follows

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
What wonders do you favour for a space-ship game (and why)?

Generally the science boosters: Oracle or Pyramids if the start is good for them. Great Library. Taj Mahal. Statue of Liberty.

How many cities do you favour and what degree of specialisation?

As many good ones as I can fit in. I'm not a fan of non-financial fishing villages though.

What do you do about Great People?

Early academies, shrines and discovering techs mostly. Super specialists are very good with Philosophical + Pyramids. With a large empire as I had in this one, golden ages are the best use in the late game.

What %age science do you like to run with?

As high as I can get it unless I'm rush buying. The percentage is irrelevant. 2000 beakers per turn at 70% is better than 1000 beakers at 90%.

How do you manage your civics?

Currently I've been swayed towards representation + SoL for max research if I can get away with it. However, it's more difficult to manage the endgame and the timing of when infrastructure completes because you can't rush buy without taking the anarchy hit. Sometimes Universal Suffrage works better for the town hammers, and it's better if you expect anyone might invade you.

I think free market usually wins in the economics category. Mercantilism more or less sucks if you are trading with more than 1-2 partners *even in conjunction with representation.* The thing about foreign trade routes is that they are concentrated in your best cities which have full improvements. You can check the F2 screen to see if distance maintenance is killing you and a state property switch would be beneficial.

In the late game I will switch to free religion to kill the heathen religion modifier, so people don't stop trading with me when I refuse to stop trading with their worst enemies.

Any thoughts on managing the AI?

It feels like grabbing as much territory as you can handle up to the Renaissance will pay off, so kick everyone else off the continent. (But the first game showed that Mansa is better left alive but smaller than the player as he's worth more in tech trades that way.)

[KerThud]

I'm only up to 1180AD or so and just wiped out the French after a 120 year cat/samurai blitzkrieg. The Romans are next. I've started reading all spoilers. My game sounds a lot like uberfish's with the exception that I wiped out Huayna quickly.

I probably won't get time to finish until later next week, but since my approach is clear, future spoiler posts are fine.

With aggressive and organized, it does seem that Japan's best strategy is the ancient-classical rush. It might have been different with an isolated island start.

[solo]

I have also just finished my game, and not with the result I expected, but first I will respond to RJM’s questions:

I think the patch has provided better balance by weakening Representation and by reducing the benefits of early chops. Representation was so good before, that it was always worth it to me to always try for the Pyramids to get that civic early. With the patch’s changes I think Representation is still a very good deal, but just not as easily attainable. I think the change for chops was a big step in the right direction, since this had always seemed more like a necessary exploit rather than an alternative strategic choice.

As for general strategy, I must conclude now that much depends on the leader traits, the game settings and the starting position. Previously, I believed that a lean approach that maximized the capital’s science production was always going to win over other methods, but there are many viable options, any of which may be best for a given game. However, whichever one that ends up maximizing research speed will always be the one I want to use. It’s just a matter of making the correct choice and sticking with it!

For wonders I like the Pyramids and Great Library the most, with the Great Lighthouse coming in close behind. Later in the game on higher levels or with good AI researchers, I always aim for the Internet. Other wonders I consider optional are more dependent on how useful they may be at the time they become available. Often a marginal wonder may built, if there is nothing better to do at the time.

Because of the boost from Bureaucracy, my capital becomes my science city be default. If another location ends up being much better for generating beakers, I’ll move my capital there. The main function of others cities will depend mostly on their surrounding terrain. The main thing is to be careful in picking choice locations for planting cities, since each new one must contribute something of significant value, or else it’s just a burden.

A habit I have picked up from OCC games is joining all GP’s to the capital to boost research and production there, but in games where it is expedient to start off by building a large empire, saving them up for Golden Ages may pay off big time later, as proven by Uberfish in this game. One thing I try to do early on is limit the kinds generated in individual cities to a certain type, i.e. only build wonders or use specialists that help generate GS’s in my capital, and only build wonders or use specialists favoring GE’s in another city, etc. This allows more control over the types generated and helps eliminate the generation of less desirable types, such as GA’s. Generally, if I do not have enough food to run a lot of specialists plus keep a city growing, I will favor city growth, as long as the growth remains within the current health and happiness limits. From time to time I’ll burn a specialist to learn a tech I really need immediately or a GE to rush something I consider vital.

I try to keep the science slider maxed out and make up any deficits by selling techs to the AI.

I agree with your Civic choices, but often use Caste System and Pacifism early in the game to help generate more GP’s. Once the cost of GP’s rises and I have a bigger army to support, I shift to Free Religion. I’ll also go to Emancipation later if forced by unhappiness. If I have plenty of cash, I’ll rush buy as needed.

I try to keep the AI happy to maximize trading opportunities and also to maintain peace. When I share their continent I am more careful about trades and relations, but when alone, as with Elizabeth in the last game, I never feel threatened by the skill of the AI at amphibious operations, so will ignore or refuse any demands I don’t like. However, if they demand gold or a tech I can spare, I always agree. I can always get the gold right back by selling a tech, and keep that AI as a happy trading partner. If on the same continent, I like to keep the aggressive AI busy by bribing them to attack one another whenever there is lull in the action.

Now on to the remainder of my game. Spoiler info follows:

By 1040, I also had the Liberalism – Astronomy combo and came into contact with Peter, who became a good trading partner throughout the rest of the game. Although he found me first, I was first to circumnavigate, doing this a few turns later. Contact was also made with Washington and Bismarck, the remaining AI. During this period my cities kept busy building universities and observatories, and all the while Louis was getting stronger and stronger.

Once Oxford was completed in 1255, I already had Gunpowder, Chemistry and Steel and had begun to supplement my neglected military in earnest with musketmen, grenadiers and a few cannon. Anticipating the inevitable attack from Louis, I started fortifying grenadiers on all of my good defensive terrain near our mutual border. Research switched to the Physics to Computers path. Computers were discovered in 1560 and 4 turns later Louis attacked, just after he had learned Chemistry. Bismarck joined in a few turns later, but all he would do was send a few caravels towards my waiting frigates.

For about 10 turns Louis wasted units attacking my fortified positions. When his attack was spent, I switched over to the offense and took enough of his cities to boost my power rating to the top and lower his by 3 positions. I suggested 480 gold as appropriate tribute for making peace, which was done in 1662, the turn before I discovered Rocketry. By now my army was one of the strongest (and one of the most expensive to maintain!), and there were was not any more nonsense about declaring war.

Apollo was done in 1716, and I was ahead of Elizabeth’s pace established in the previous game. This was followed by the Internet, which gave me Military Tradition, Communism, Assembly Line, Industrialization and Flight, but by now it was 1760, and I still had many SS techs to learn by myself. A bit earlier in the game, I had started to get the feeling that researching each tech was taking a little longer than usual, and by this time I was convinced that I had made a strategic blunder much earlier in the game by not going after more cities then. Instead of taking 5 or 6 turns to learn each SS tech, it was taking from 10 to 15 turns each. Not so good! I paid the price by being unable to launch before 1800, and ended up having to wait on my scientists until 1844.

So my hearty congrats are to Uberfish for finding the most efficient way so far in this game to an early launch. Finishing Apollo first was not enough for me, so my hat’s off to Uberfish for a very impressive game, using a strategy best adapted to the situation we all started off with. Nice going!

Also my congrats to Swiss Pauli and such a great recovery after so much bad luck early in the game. His game also helped to prove that early conquest was probably the best strategic choice in this game.

Some lessons learned by me were:

1) Try to benefit from, rather than ignore, your leader’s traits.

2) Delaying conquest of the AI on your continent results in higher maintenance later, needed to support a bigger military. I could only run 80% science this game, rather than my usual 90 or 100%.

3) At slower game speeds the higher tech costs require more beakers than just 6 cities can provide, and there is more time to conquer and assimilate AI cities that can add beakers later when they are really needed for those expensive SS techs.

4) In my own game, I would have been better off taking Capac’s city on the island after taking the barb city there, following this with an attack against Louis while he was distracted by his war with Caesar. I think I needed at least 4 or more additional cities to be competitive.

[KerThud]

Since I'm away from the computer I have that will play CIV until next week, I've been looking at the changes in the new patch.

I think my playstyle is going to have to change. I agree with Swiss Pauli that the patch will require some rethinking. For one thing, it makes the Pyramids less attractive: harder to get because chops are less effective, and less useful because Representation is only 2 instead of 3 extra happies.

I didn't even care about the other wonders, even the Oracle, because I figured I'd either capture them or have so many cities (conquered by chopped troops) that I wouldn't need them.

In this Tokugawa game, my strategy certainly would have changed to: rush a neighbor, but leave Louis alone in the hope that he'd build the Pyramids for me. I guess this actually would have worked in this game, but I didn't want to risk it because I knew from checking the top 5 cities in the demographics screen that Germany and America were in the game.

The patch will probably be good for game play, because I think it reduces the efficacy of two of my two must-do strategies: chop the Pyramids, then chop an early axe horde. It'll be good to have to play better to get good results.

Also a thought on game speed. This is my first game on epic (from quick and normal). I certainly notice the increase in game length, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Mainly because the longevity of troops makes war more efficient.

Maybe the next round could be a quick game speed. That tends to favor builder strategies. And we could jump into the new patch as an emperor? Just a thought since everyone who's completed the Tokugawa game so far has won.

[Swiss Pauli]

Paris, which had 45,000 culture, is mine and Louis 2 remaining cities will soon fall. I have a Great Artist to bomb Paris with, which is a nice bonus.

Tech-wise, I'm a bit behind but not as bad as I feared because I was able to slowly go down from 80% to 60% over the course of the campaign. Given that I don't follow the AI's path, I was able to trade Assembly for Rail.

It's a bit hard to estimate, but I reckon an early C20th launch is possible. Might try to foster war between Peter and Washington, but that won't be so easy as they're best pals currently.

In terms of the general strategy (from RJM's post), I'll re-examine things once I have a few shots at 1.61, but I mostly agree with uberfish.

[Swiss Pauli]

I launched in 1864 thanks to some frenzied buy-rushing (pentagon, 3 Gorges, Space Elevator, and the usual cash and research buildings) and end-game GPs. I milked my score by rushing UN and Hollywood after Ecology was in the bag.

An enjoyable game - it was nice to recover from the bad start as opposed to having it in the bag from a long way out.