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  • #91
    I've completed my experiment. There's a certain diminished excitement, since I knew how things are going to turn out, but what wouldn't I do for science?

    Summary: The GP-focused game launched in 1798, the cash-focused game launched in 1792. The chief differences between the two were: a) civics - Representation/Mercantilism vs. Universal Sufferage/Free Market, b) tech priority - Biology vs. Communism, and c) citizens' tile placement - farms vs. cottages. Past the industrial era, game play was virtually identical. I'll omit the logs, unless requested.

    The cash game lagged a bit behind the GP game until Computers, when the ability to rush a continent's worth of Laboratories instantly turned the tide. The GP game got a fourth golden age at the very end, which accelerated things back into a near-tie. I think I played a little smarter in the cash game as well, since these three were only my third-fifth times going for a spaceship victory and the learning curve is moderately steep.

    The key lesson I learned, which should have been painfully obvious, is that taking the time to plan a unified strategy from some appropriate post-Columbian reference point all the way through till the end of the game is well worth it. Basically, WHICH particular unified strategy I'm using affects the game far less than WHETHER I'm using one or not.

    There's one other thing I've been thinking about when reading y'alls logs: I wonder, what is the effect of being in a tight tech race vs. being way ahead? In my game (and I think a few of y'alls), the last tech the AI had that I didn't was Economics, and every tech after I had to research myself for the first time. It seems that others had games where greater AI prominence might have allowed tech trading and tech "drafting" (discounted tech costs because it's been completed by other civs) to speed things up. Now, I wouldn't trade the surety of having totally secured the biggest landmass for anything, even in an ostensibly peaceful world. But I find myself thinking that, perhaps, allowing the AI to give you a competitive tech race could actually accelerate the launch date, as long as you had an ace up your sleeve to actually hit the button first. It also sounds like a more exciting approach, too.
    Last edited by zabrak; April 17, 2006, 09:31.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by zabrak
      The key lesson I learned, which should have been painfully obvious, is that taking the time to plan a unified strategy from some appropriate post-Columbian reference point all the way through till the end of the game is well worth it. Basically, WHICH particular unified strategy I'm using affects the game far less than WHETHER I'm using one or not.
      Wow. I wouldn't have expected that. And this was with a non-financial and non-philosophical leader. I'm assuming that with either of those traits, there would be a clear preference of path.

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      • #93
        [QUOTE] Originally posted by KerThud
        Originally posted by zabrak
        The key lesson I learned, which should have been painfully obvious, is that taking the time to plan a unified strategy from some appropriate post-Columbian reference point all the way through till the end of the game is well worth it. Basically, WHICH particular unified strategy I'm using affects the game far less than WHETHER I'm using one or not.

        Wow. I wouldn't have expected that. And this was with a non-financial and non-philosophical leader. I'm assuming that with either of those traits, there would be a clear preference of path.
        I think Zabrak's point is that there is a huge difference between using any unified strategy and not using one. (Illustrated by his launch in the 1790s and mine in the 1930s.) There are in comparison only small differences between specific unified strategies (assuming they are reasonably sensible).

        Even with a financial, philosophical leader (Lizzie), sticking to a non-optimal strategy will beat thrashing around at random.

        The niceties of choosing which strategy is best only become important after the lesson of sticking to a strategy has been learned.

        RJM at Sleeper's
        Fill me with the old familiar juice

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        • #94
          That's a good point. You could say that Organized, because it saves money and helps coastal cities a bit, should lean towards the cash-focused approach, but I think this effect on grand strategy is not nearly as strong as Financial's. (Incidentally, I was surprised at the way Financial was nerfed; my expectation was that the extra commerce per tile would be removed or weakened, and the bonus to constructing cash-multiplying buildings expanded, instead of the other way around. Perhaps a cash-only, instead of a commerce-wide, multiplier would be kept, but the idea that a trait called "Financial" would directly benefit science and/or culture always stuck me as out-of-place and over-powered.)

          By the same token, Industrious and Expansive are both an influence towards GP-focus, although their effects are probably minor in comparison to Philosophical. Aggressive and Creative are strong and weak influences towards warmongering, respectively. Spiritual is an influence towards a mixed or more situationally flexible approach.

          Perhaps the weak effect on grand strategy that Expansive, Creative, and Industrious express is the best way to sum up the reason they aren't preferred by many players.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by zabrak
            Perhaps the weak effect on grand strategy that Expansive, Creative, and Industrious express is the best way to sum up the reason they aren't preferred by many players.
            Bearing in mind that the AI is affected by the new patch as well, I guess that's why EXP was boosted and IND should generate better returns because of the reduced efficiency of the ancient era chop.

            I've played out a few Oracle-possible starts with 1.61. On the only one suited to a CS Sling, the AI built the Oracle (Epic) in BC1390!! In two other games I completed in BC880 (chopped) and BC790 (no chop), each time taking CoL.

            In two of the starts, I had an AGG AI whom I knew would declare war because I was last in military around BC100, but I survived the attacks comfortably. So far the changes don't seem so drastic, but I want to play out a few more.

            WRT to the 1390 Oracle game, I switched to Henge and finished that in BC920 which is pretty late. Maybe the AI is looking at connected resources before starting wonders - I could see some unworked stone in the jungle - but that's conjecture on my part.

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            • #96
              Surely if we showed anything, we showed that there WAS one best grand strategy given these settings and start position - conquering the continent then going into research mode.

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              • #97
                I agree that the big benefit of zabrak's study (thanks for taking the time to do that!) is that any unified strategy beats flailing about and mixing strategies.

                Good analysis of the potential utility of the different traits.

                And it will be interesting to see what affect the patch has on the average AI completion date for the early wonders.

                WRT the early Oracle date, I had a game once (Monarch, Continents, Standard everything) where the AI finished the Pyramids in 1200BC. I always wondered if it was a hut tech and then an early start, or if there happened to be a heavily forested city that the AI started clearing for cottages and accidentally ended up chopping them. I guess there's always that possiblity, especially with an industrious leader in the game. Keeps it interesting.

                BTW, does anyone know if it's easy to change the game speed after the game has been generated? Perhaps by loading into Worldbuilder, then saving it out as a scenario? If another Spaceship comparison game is run, it might be interesting to see if game speed has an effect on the optimum strategy. Maybe the conquer-the-island first strategy worked best because the game speed was epic. Though I suspect that having an aggressive and organized leader would always tend to favor a military expansion, at least initially.

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                • #98
                  This sounds like fun. I'm a little behind. I just got to 1 AD, but I seem to have some fine progress. Let me put up some milestones and see if anyones interested.

                  1025 BC Oracle
                  640 BC Great Lighthouse
                  520 BC Pyramids
                  320 BC Academy
                  140 BC Civil Service/Bureaucracy

                  I have all the Ancient techs and 2 turns from researching Literature. Running 90% tech.

                  My experience is with a lot of "fastest finish" games with various different win conditions. I specialize in OCC, so my approach is usually a minimal one with very fast starts. I can't wait to see if it pans out over the long haul.

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                  • #99
                    Surely if we showed anything, we showed that there WAS one best grand strategy given these settings and start position - conquering the continent then going into research mode.
                    I'd respond to that in two ways:

                    First, accepting the premise that conquering the continent is best, that research mode can be handled in at least two distinct and mutually exclusive unified strategies - cash-rushing and GP/Representation.

                    Second, I'm not sure I'd accept the premise. I think it's possible that pruning the AI civs on the home continent to just their 3-4 core cities each might have allowed them to actually participate in the tech race and therefore accelerate it. With the exceptions of gold and marble, I believe all the resources can be gotten with just the lower 3/4s of the continent, so you'd still be in control. It's not really my style, so I don't have any firsthand experience, but I do recall Civ3 spaceship launches in the 1300s on the higher difficulty levels, due to frequent tech trading and drafting among the AI.

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                    • Originally posted by zabrak

                      First, accepting the premise that conquering the continent is best, that research mode can be handled in at least two distinct and mutually exclusive unified strategies - cash-rushing and GP/Representation.
                      That was something that we hoped to compare, but as every game pans out differently, we didn't have an exact comparison. As you wrote, it's not exactly the same when a position is replayed. Maybe we could have someone post up a save just as they're about to get to Liberalism and then we all go on from there?

                      Second, I'm not sure I'd accept the premise. I think it's possible that pruning the AI civs on the home continent to just their 3-4 core cities each might have allowed them to actually participate in the tech race and therefore accelerate it.
                      I don't think so...they'd put too much into military and grind to a halt tech-wise. Or fight each other. in my game, I would have been quite happy to share with Louis but he wouldn't have it; Jules had overreached by settling Little Island and was way behind in tech even though he had a reasonable core territory; and Inca didn't really get going for some reason...

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                      • The AI just can't keep up with 3-4 cities against 20+. The best scenario for tech trading would be a strong Mansa since he will trade monopoly techs. With other AIs you need to wait for two of them to research it anyway.

                        One approach worth trying might be rushing to Fibre Optics and building Internet while giving all techs away to all non-hostile AIs. I find skipping techs such as assembly line, biology and democracy really hurts, though.

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                        • The Internet is most useful (and sometimes essential) at higher levels, when the AI become very competitive in the tech race. At Monarch it may produce quite a few techs if you remember to sell all your other techs to the all of the AI, so that they have a chance of learning something you need for the SS. Even earlier in the game, you can get quite a few techs by trade if you are quick to sell rather than horde the techs you acquire.

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                          • Originally posted by solo
                            The Internet is most useful (and sometimes essential) at higher levels, when the AI become very competitive in the tech race. At Monarch it may produce quite a few techs if you remember to sell all your other techs to the all of the AI, so that they have a chance of learning something you need for the SS. Even earlier in the game, you can get quite a few techs by trade if you are quick to sell rather than horde the techs you acquire.
                            Despite experience in Civ 2 where it pays to give away techs in order to encourage the AI to research something you want, I tend to be a horder once I reach Rocketry. I'll have to try being more open.

                            RJM at Sleeper's
                            Fill me with the old familiar juice

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                            • it's 1000 AD.

                              I've already finished the Oxford. I have Gunpowder, Printing Press, and I'm half way thru Astronomy. ( I plan to use liberalism's free tech for something bigger like Computers or Industrialsim depending on which path I take.) Once any AI gets Education and Philosophy I'll grab something. Maybe that's a mistake. I'd like to go Free Religion, but I dont' even have philosophy so I'll wait to trade it.

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                              • Originally posted by mdbill
                                it's 1000 AD.

                                I've already finished the Oxford. I have Gunpowder, Printing Press, and I'm half way thru Astronomy. ( I plan to use liberalism's free tech for something bigger like Computers or Industrialsim depending on which path I take.) Once any AI gets Education and Philosophy I'll grab something. Maybe that's a mistake. I'd like to go Free Religion, but I dont' even have philosophy so I'll wait to trade it.
                                That's a very interesting tactic - what about free Physics: expensive tech and a free scientist?

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