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**samspock** · February 14, 2006, 10:16

I havent jumped to Emperor yet but I usually do a CS Slingshot and don't get a religion until COL. My last game on prince I managed to research Bronze first and still founded hiduism (as Rome no less!) Not sure how I managed that. I just did my usual Bronze/Mystisisim/Poly track. I did luck out and got Agriculture from a goodie hut though.

**chiqss** · February 14, 2006, 10:27

Hi ,

I'm also playing at Emperor level now and quite agree with your strategy of early war to take border AI cities.

As for religion i can't figure how to play without a holy city after BC as maintenance cost would be too high ( especially if you take the neighbooring AI cities )

You are right to say that you can't rely on a neighboor founding a religion but you then can't rely on having cooper in your borders ...

I have seen a post where is discussed the organized trait
People say that you can avoid picking org. by "sacrificing"
a city to make gold with merchant. I guess playing without a holy city , you must have a city that can provide the sufficient amount of gold to maintain...

IMHO those early decisions have to be taken according to the land and special ressources you get...

**Cadarn** · February 14, 2006, 10:31

I too haven't made the leap to Emperor level yet, but my first research priority is always Polytheism

Yes, I know that I should be building a worker first whislt researching Bronze Working but I try and get my city up to size 3 first if I have flood plains or a sea resource in my workable area for the extra commerce/research. Also, the extra food surplus means faster worker/settler builds.

Not sure how desperate you are to build those Axemen.....could you wait that long for Bronze Working? Also, would the AI always beat you to Polytheism due to it's faster research on Emperor?

If you can get it, I would have thought that the long term benefits would be a much bigger reward than one or two Axemen built early.

(I do play on large & huge maps though.....)

**nullspace** · February 14, 2006, 10:35

You don't need to found a religion to get a religion. Just open your borders to someone who's got a religion, and you'll be infected soon enough. This lets you pick who you want to friends with, and it costs you almost nothing. The only thing you miss out on is the shrine, and that's not a very big deal. There are plenty of other ways to make money, and if you conquer the holy city later, you get a shrine without having to use a great person. I think founding a religion is only worth it if you're willing to actively spread it to your neighbors and use it as a tool in diplomacy. Otherwise, a holy city and shrine isn't important, and doesn't do much for a warmonger strategy.

**chiqss** · February 14, 2006, 10:48

Originally posted by nullspace
The only thing you miss out on is the shrine, and that's not a very big deal. There are plenty of other ways to make money, .

I play huge maps , 10 AI marathons games and in those for the moment I would have bankrupt without a shrine.

the only way i found out to stay alive in those games is to attack border cities to be able to have around 5-6 cities when all the space available is used.(usually you found 2 or 3 and then you are surounded ) after these conquest you have a pretty high amount of gold which is slowly eaten by a maintenance of around -10/-20 per turn ( you can't get under 60% science very long ) .then aound 0 AD my prophete appears and I get +20/30 depending on how my religion is spread ... by this time i haven't money yet and couldn't keep in science .... usually , end of game arount 700-1000 attacked and wiped by a strong neighboor...

Maybe having a food producing city and have caste system for unlimited merchants

**make** · February 14, 2006, 11:40

the only way i found out to stay alive in those games is to attack border cities to be able to have around 5-6 cities when all the space available is used.(usually you found 2 or 3 and then you are surounded ) after these conquest you have a pretty high amount of gold which is slowly eaten by a maintenance of around -10/-20 per turn ( you can't get under 60% science very long ) .then aound 0 AD my prophete appears and I get +20/30 depending on how my religion is spread ... by this time i haven't money yet and couldn't keep in science .... usually , end of game arount 700-1000 attacked and wiped by a strong neighboor...

I havent played huge maps, but I know what you mean. I agree with you, that if you cant settle more than 2-3 cities before there is no more free land, the only way to stay in the game is to conquer some ASAP.

You don't need to found a religion to get a religion. Just open your borders to someone who's got a religion, and you'll be infected soon enough. This lets you pick who you want to friends with, and it costs you almost nothing. The only thing you miss out on is the shrine, and that's not a very big deal.

My point is that you need to conquer cities very early on emporer lvl. That mean war...and no open borders with my chosen victim civ. If I have 2 or more neighbors and the one I choose to be friends with found a religion, perhaps this will work, but again...theres to must luck involved...or to many factors I cant control. I This is not accepteble to me.

I disagree with you that the shrine is not a big deal. It is the main reason i love religion. Those gold it generates when multipliers starts to appear really makes a difference.
If there where no shrines in the game, i wouldnt think twice to not race to found a religion.

Not sure how desperate you are to build those Axemen.....could you wait that long for Bronze Working? Also, would the AI always beat you to Polytheism due to it's faster research on Emperor?

Im not desperate to build axemen, I just whant to get bronzeworking ASAP...to find out where the bronze is...so i can get it or prevent the AI from getting it. If I have bronze...AI do not...I win the game...it is that simple.
If I dont have bronze...bad luck..but theres plenty of alternatives to live with that.

You are right to say that you can't rely on a neighboor founding a religion but you then can't rely on having cooper in your borders ...

You are absolutely right. Having bronze in my borders is also a matter of luck, but it is not a matter of luck to know where is, and choosing youre moves with tyhat knowledge in mind.

have seen a post where is discussed the organized trait

I meant that i always use the Organized Religion Civic.

**Blake** · February 14, 2006, 11:58

Shrines aren't really that profitable, in the early game for a fair while it'll be more profitable to settle great prophets.
Unless you get lucky with lots of unimpeded religious spread the shrine might end up only at 15-20 gold, which is only like 3 towns.

Like is a shrine worth as much as another city? Probably not.

I think the major concern is actually happiness, a religion gives you +2 happy (1 from state, 1 from temple), and that's a big deal on top of the pathetic 3 happy limit. But if you have easy happy resource - gold, ivory etc and some calendar resources in sight then you can easily forgo religion. Hereditary rule and slider + theatre also works well of course.

As always it does depend, on the ease of getting the religion and the abundance of happy resources. In some cases religions cost nearly nothing to get and that makes them a Good Thing.

Some leaders would also seem to get by better without religion, types like Washington and Cyrus. With economic advantages and/or the ability to claim a bunch of land to cottage then the religion isn't so important.

**chiqss** · February 14, 2006, 12:19

Originally posted by Blake
spread the shrine might end up only at 15-20 gold, which is only like 3 towns.

it would be 3 beautifull towns : would be a NET income of 7 per town which would mean an income of around 10-15 ( with 5-10 maintenance)

And yes you're right it depends pretty much on how your religion spreads , but you can make it spread real fast with organized religion and open borders ( which is the strategy to go for if you have a shrine )

**Willem** · February 14, 2006, 12:43

It's not necessary to go for an early religion, go for one of the later ones instead. I used to try for an early one, but now I go after Confusianism and get it too 99.9% of the time, though I'm not playing on Emperor. Too many people seem to forget that there's 3 other religions available after Monotheism. Plan your research right and it shouldn't be a problem getting one or two of them.

**Blake** · February 14, 2006, 12:54

it would be 3 beautifull towns : would be a NET income of 7 per town which would mean an income of around 10-15 ( with 5-10 maintenance)

Hrmmm? I'm talking about the town tile improvement, evolved cottage. Like, if by not investing in the shrine, you somehow manage to get 3 more tiles to work, that's what the shrine is worth in the long run.
Altough under favorable conditions shrine income can go MUCH higher, like over 60 pre-multipliers.

And yes you're right it depends pretty much on how your religion spreads , but you can make it spread real fast with organized religion and open borders ( which is the strategy to go for if you have a shrine )

Missionary spam just doesn't happen sometimes. Like each neighbour founds a different religion so motivation to spread religion is low and it'd be better to build military to take the holy cities.

It's not necessary to go for an early religion, go for one of the later ones instead. I used to try for an early one, but now I go after Confusianism and get it too 99.9% of the time, though I'm not playing on Emperor. Too many people seem to forget that there's 3 other religions available after Monotheism. Plan your research right and it shouldn't be a problem getting one or two of them.

At emperor it's more likely to forget there are religions below Conf. Mysticism leaders are the only ones with a prayer of getting any of them. Juadism... is hard to justify, when by the time it is researched barbarian archers will be at the gates. So pretty much the easy religion is Conf, pick up CoL with a prophet or Oracle. Philo and Christ can also be oracled or lightbulbed.

**Shaka II** · February 14, 2006, 13:30

Originally posted by nullspace
You don't need to found a religion to get a religion. Just open your borders to someone who's got a religion, and you'll be infected soon enough. This lets you pick who you want to friends with, and it costs you almost nothing. The only thing you miss out on is the shrine, and that's not a very big deal. There are plenty of other ways to make money, and if you conquer the holy city later, you get a shrine without having to use a great person. I think founding a religion is only worth it if you're willing to actively spread it to your neighbors and use it as a tool in diplomacy. Otherwise, a holy city and shrine isn't important, and doesn't do much for a warmonger strategy.

That's what I do and for exactly the same reasons. It's not the way to go for the warmonger. It's much better to wait and catch religion from your neighbors and check to see who is what religion, how strong they are, where they are, and who like or dislikes who, before deciding on which one to adopt. I sometimes switch religions to befriend a different civ. Things are dynamic and you have to be willing to change if it brings key diplomacy benefits.

I usually don't even bother researching the religious techs, rather I trade for them with alphabet or an equivalent tech like monarchy. If I have pyramids, I don't go for monarchy, since I have representation for happiness. Likewise, I usually trade for ironworking, unless I don't have copper, in which case there's a key decision point. Usually, I'll go for archery for barb defense, especially if I popped hunting in a goodie hut. If I'm Romans and I don't have copper, I'll go for IW for Praetorians. In every game I've played, if I didn't have copper, I had iron, and usually horses. but researching IW means a delay in getting to alphabet, and pottery for cottages. If it looks like an early war is in the cards, then IW is the way to go. If not, then it's wait for construction and catapults. The early acquisition of two or three AI cities is very strong, so if I have copper, 3 cities is all I build and switch to barracks and axemen.

Not researching the religous techs means that you have to hustle to writing and chop in your libraries to expand your cultural borders and get science full speed, another reason to forgo IW. On a standard size pangea map, I usually build 4 cities and take over the rest. If no one crowds me, I'll build two more to make 6, but no more. From then on, let the AI build them for you, while you build a military to take them.

The one wonder that I usually build, if I have stone, is the Pyramids for the government types it allows, and great engineers. The present game is peculiar in that way, since Mao is PHI/ORG, and I ended up building, Pyramids, Great Library, Hanging Gardens, and Taj Mahal, but there's a cost associated with that. I was boxed in very early by Caesar and didn't feel up to going at it with his Prateorians, so I turtled and paid him to fight Cyrus. Now, I'm finally expanding, taking over Cyrus' empire. In general, wonders are bad for domination/emperor play, aggressive and organized are very strong, and marathon is great.

**chiqss** · February 14, 2006, 14:17

Originally posted by Blake

Hrmmm? I'm talking about the town tile improvement, evolved cottage. Like, if by not investing in the shrine, you somehow manage to get 3 more tiles to work, that's what the shrine is worth in the long run.
Altough under favorable conditions shrine income can go MUCH higher, like over 60 pre-multipliers.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I am a cottage lover , i build lot's of them .
I meant that during the first ages ( until about 0 AD , before calendar , currency ) having 3 city producing a net income of 7 is difficult to get...
and if you get them , then your production might not be sufficient to built the necessary military forces
maybe I have to improve my early strategy

**make** · February 14, 2006, 14:28

Thankyou all fore youre comments.

I would like to explain more about why I am trying to find a way to justify not researching the religious techs from the beginning.

First of all. On Emperor it is really important not to get behind in military strengt / techs early on. I have to many times seen the AI roll all over me at the first sign of weakness I show.

Reasons for beeing weak in the beginning is almost always a result of going fore wonders and neglating mili units. This is easy to counter...dont build wonders. This is not essential.

The second reason is researching military techs to late. This goes especially fore bronzeworking. If the AI get this 50 turns before you (not unlikely on emporer / marathon), you are at bigtime risk to be the target of a stack of axemen, wich is very hard to counter at this stage, unless you have youre own stack of them. Get them first and strike first...this is my philosophy.
This is a hard one to counter.

First. There are so many benifits as you all know to founding a religion. There is no counter. Having a holy shrine fore gold, temples fore smileys and culture for just having a religion in a city is just to powerfull to overlook. ....
But to enjoy all these benifits of religion means, ofcourse, that you werent wipes out by some AI. Short term security VS long term benifits.....its a hard decision.

**Alkis2** · February 14, 2006, 14:44

I wonder if I was lucky with religion thus far, but all the times I play a leader who has Mysticism I go for Polytheism and usually I get hinduism first.

I never failed with Asoka. With Saladin I did fail once and another time on Monarch. Oh yes, I forgot to say, these results are on Emperor. I also tried it with Ghandi once (succeeded).

Of course, if you have a tile with commerce (and usually there is one) you better use that. But it's not absolutely necessary.

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