Is religion a must?

[make]

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[Yosho]

On what setting?

In my last game, i had no trouble getting both buddhism and hinduism first, on Monarch.

[make]

It was on Emperor

[joncnunn]

If not starting with Mystism, Poly is a more flexable choice, because founding Judism is the consolation prize to missing the founding of Hinduism by a few turns.

Originally posted by Blake
I've found there is really no difference between the chances of getting buddhism and hinduism. It's actually fairly likely you'll get either of them.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make

The last game before this one, I lost 7 warriors to them. When my 7th warrior, sitting fortified in a forest with the wooodsman promo, fell to a barb archer, I retired, fell on my knees in front of Capac to beg him be my leader. He accepted, and my vengeance on barb archers has been brutal ever since.

I had two great games with Capac recently, on Pangea/emperor, one being my second best ever, after Tokugawa. I founded Hinduism, built Stonehenge and eventually the shrine, but became a Buddhist to befriend Isabelle. She really gets in a bad mood when you're not her religion. But I really didn't need to found a religion, it just delayed my progress in expanding. Some of the religious cities I conquered had some pretty lucrative shrines though. I had six shrines by the end of the game.

Quechuas are very fun to play with and against the barbs on marathon especially. That's an interesting early rush you pulled off.

But Quechuas don't hold up against axemen so I hustle to get copper or else get archery quicly before they appear. Aggressive and financial is just a great combination, almost as good as agressive and organized.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Shaka II
The Indians.

Blake must have a trick up his sleeve. The one and only time I tried to go for meditation, I got beat by about 3 turns, playing as Capac.

*shrug*, I try more than once?

Latest game the (emperor) AI founded Hinduism while I was still researching Meditation, I founded Buddhism too .

[Shaka II]

OK, so my sample size wasn't very statistically meaning.

It does seem like there are a number of games where Buddhism seems to be founded a bit late. Like if I had known it was going to be founded that late, I would have gone after it myself. But it seems a bit risky. If you fail, it's a large setback, not to have gone for BW.

Certainly it's dependent on how many others are in the game starting with mysticism, and if you're one of them, that's one less AI with mysticism. But if you're both going for meditation, I think you'll probably lose, unless you have some unusual coinage and/or fast growth in the capital to make up for the AI research bonus.

[make]

Last game with Capac I won domination in 16XX. Score 51XXX. My best score ever (emperor). I thought I had found the optimal leader and opening approuch, but as so many times before, my view on that changed in the next game (my current).

In the shade of my latest game I am playing, I once again question if religion really is a must and if there can be any real advantage not having a religion.

This time, also with Capac, I got an Island start, with Isabella on the neighbor Island (Galley access). Oh boy this start sucks. My Island have only room fore 6 Ok cities, only have 2 health resources, lots of ice and tundra and Isabella declared war 5 turns after meeting her. I have had 2 peace treaties with her, but now she refuses to make peace anymore. She now have caravels, I only galleys, she rules the seas and my fish...bugger...my cities cap at size 10 because of health.

So now I wonder. If I didnt found Hinduism and making it statereligion (Isabella is buddist), maybe she wouldnt have declared war without provocation and my game would be much better. I could trade with her and she wouldnt deny me my fish. Her invasion was all easely dealt with, so thats not a problem.

Good things about religion, how to live without, and bad things.

1. Culture. Having a religion give you 1 cpt. That means you can skip obelisk. Being creative counters this.

2. Happiness. +1 smiley for state religion + 1 per temple. Monarchy counters this.

3. Holy shrine income. There are other good uses for great persons. Perhaps making a great scientest as the first, getting the academy sooner. Later a great merchant to use as a specialist instead of the profet. You also save production on missionaries who has to spread the religion.

4. You cant have organized religion fore faster building production, but its also an expensive civic. Dont know if I can live without?

5. The bad thing about religion is that you can make enemies you dont wish to have. True sharing religion can make great friends to, but the issue is to avoid wars youre not interested in.


To sum of the things I will have in mind fore my next game will be:

Dont have any religion to have better relations with other civs.

Choosing a creative leader for border expansion without haiving religion, building obelisks and temples. Im thinking about choosing Cyrus or Cathy. I dont know if I can play without financial if I choose Cyrus, but I guess I have to try sometimes.

Make monarchy an early priority. The real trick here, I think, will be to get monarchy before unhappiness kills me.

Other priorities:
Get pottery soon to get economy going.
Get archers soon to counter barb archers.

Thoughts?

[fed1943]

About Cyrus:he is Mister Land.Just don't get broken.
Best regards,

[make]

Originally posted by fed1943
About Cyrus:he is Mister Land.Just don't get broken.
Best regards,

I choose Cyrus. I like creative very much. It gives me border expansion without obelisks and religion. If you have close neighbors, creative shines at getting those important resources before them.

Expansionist is nice under all circumstanses, but especially on emperor+.

I havent won yet with Cyrus and the no religion strat, but my current game looks promising. The only true win fore me is domination.

I have had some very bad luck in the last couple of games, so I would have lost under all circumstances, It wasnt my strat that failed. In one, Alexender came from the other end of the continent, going throug Victorias land, with a huge stack of axes and Phalanx. I had no bronze or iron in my borders. I bravely defended my bordercity with archers and Immortals, but alas, I was overpowered.

I am proud to say that I have finally been able to break free of my Hinduism + financial addiction and come out on the other end with what I think is a stronger and more consistent winning strategy. Although I havent won to prove it yet, I think my newfound strat is much more flexible and enjoyable


The essence of it is:

If you skip trying to get the early religions in favor of researching early war and development techs, you have a much better chance of surviving the start, where you are very vulnurable at emperor+.
True, early religions can be strong under some circumstances, but I think this is more safe apporouch to a more consistent winning strategy.

This is due to getting good defense up ASAP. Not having a religion increases the chance that you are the one that chooses when to go to war. Not someone with a different religion than you, that fore no other reason desides to annoy you.

Im not saying that if religion spreads to youre land, you dont adopt it. It can be very nice to have religion if it is safe (you dont have a stronger civ next door with a different religion).
This happened to me in my current game. Buddism spread to my land, I adopted it. It was safe because I only had contact with Saladin who spread the religion.
When I meet the rest, my relations with them was terrribel because of different religions. Then I decided to get Liberalism ASAP and swithed to free religion. Now all is pleased with me, exept Tokygawa (I didnt help him fight Alex and traded with his worst enemy).

So I am very pleased to say that fore me, religion is no longer a must

[jonta]

Originally posted by make
Emperor
Small map
Marathon
No tech trading
No culture flipping
No culture, diplo or spacerace wins.
Civ.??? Havent decided.
All other things standard settings.

I'we come to the same conclution as you have, due to the long tech time on
maraton its extra important to get a religion early
that is to say at the latest Judism.

NB.: I wonder:
why do you choose a small map (what map do
you chose )
why dont you make your civ random
why do you play no cultural flipping
why dont you use all possible wins

If you did these things you would have to adabt more to the game. try out more diffrent strats. and by that become a better player. That is if you do not do reloads.
With reloading i think you cannot become a good player at all.

[couerdelion]

At Emperor level I often find those early religions to be hit and miss. It really can be luck of the draw as to who you are up against. I had one game as Gandhi where I went for bronzeworking first and then shot to writing via priesthood. On the way, I snagged Buddhism circa 2400 BC!!

In the current game I am playing - I happen to know that the other leaders are Hatsheput, Peter, Lizzie, Mao, Huayna, Bismarck, Cyrus and Washington – Buddhism was not discovered until 2640BC.

Now, if I go for an early religion with mysticism as a starting trait, Buddhism will be discovered in 3960. Actually it will be 3480-3400 BC but I think you get my drift. I think I once managed to get Buddhism with Isabelle once but I think that’s just because she attracts religion like flies to
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jam.

[make]

Originally posted by jonta


I'we come to the same conclution as you have, due to the long tech time on
maraton its extra important to get a religion early
that is to say at the latest Judism.

NB.: I wonder:
why do you choose a small map (what map do
you chose )
why dont you make your civ random
why do you play no cultural flipping
why dont you use all possible wins

If you did these things you would have to adabt more to the game. try out more diffrent strats. and by that become a better player. That is if you do not do reloads.
With reloading i think you cannot become a good player at all.

Hi jonta.

I think you have misunderstood my final conclusion (or I misunderstand you). It is that religion is not that important. I mean, there are actually better alternatives.

I have been undergoing a process in this thread.
I was looking for at way to play without religion and all its benifits and find a stronger alternative.
At first I failed, lost heart, and went back to good old Hinduism.
Later, I tried again and found a satisfactory alternative, as explained in my previous posts in this thread.

Mapsize.

I always play small or standard size continent maps.
Small, because I alway play for at domination victory. On small maps it dosnt drag out fore weeks to complete a domination win. I chose small maps when I feel like a quick game.
Actually I like standard mapsize better because Its more realistic with more civs, cities and land. Sometimes I just dont feel like playing the same game to long.

Maptype.

I always play continent maps, because it looks most like the real world geography.

No random civ.

I dont chose random civ because I often start a game with some new idea or strategy in mind I want to try out, and the Idea often involes a specific civ.

No cultural flipping.

I dont like the Idea that I just conquered a city and then it flips back to the previous owner. Its my city now, period. If the AI want it back, they have to take it by force.
I mean, Its not realistic. Lets say that under WW2 that Paris revolts because they dont like the Nazi culture. Would it flip back to France and make all the German armies in the city to disappear in thin air with only the freedom fighters to hold the ground. No way, its just to far out for me to imagine.

Why not all types of win.

Because I think dominating the planet is the only true and satisfactory win, for me. If someone finishes the spacerace, but it is only a matter of time before I can conquer the civ, I dont see why they should win.
Same with diplomatic and culture wins.

I also use No Techtrading because the AI will never trade fairly, not even when they are friendly towards me. I think thats absurd. I just get to pissed of by having to always trade more expensive techs for cheaper ones.

I never do reloads. Its cheating, and winning with cheat is a hollow feeling for me. If I make a mistake, I live with it, no matter how bad it is.

I think of myself as a specialist in domination wins. I wonder how many GPP I generate, hehe


Have a nice day, and thank you fore youre input

[jonta]

Originally posted by make


I think you have misunderstood my final conclusion
Jonta :Yes, in fact i did

Mapsize.
I always play small or standard size continent maps.
Small, because I alway play for at domination victory. On small maps it dosnt drag out fore weeks to complete a domination win. I chose small maps when I feel like a quick game.
Actually I like standard mapsize better because Its more realistic with more civs, cities and land. Sometimes I just dont feel like playing the same game to long.
Jonta :Fair enough espec. on maraton


Maptype.

I always play continent maps, because it looks most like the real world geography.
Jonta : Me too

No random civ.

I dont chose random civ because I often start a game with some new idea or strategy in mind I want to try out, and the Idea often involes a specific civ.
Jonta :Still think a random game isa more of a challange

No cultural flipping.
I dont like the Idea that I just conquered a city and then it flips back to the previous owner. Its my city now, period. If the AI want it back, they have to take it by force.
I mean, Its not realistic. Lets say that under WW2 that Paris revolts because they dont like the Nazi culture. Would it flip back to France and make all the German armies in the city to disappear in thin air with only the freedom fighters to hold the ground. No way, its just to far out for me to imagine.

Why not all types of win.

Because I think dominating the planet is the only true and satisfactory win, for me. If someone finishes the spacerace, but it is only a matter of time before I can conquer the civ, I dont see why they should win.
Same with diplomatic and culture wins.

I also use No Techtrading because the AI will never trade fairly, not even when they are friendly towards me. I think thats absurd. I just get to pissed of by having to always trade more expensive techs for cheaper ones.
Jonta :Yes i agree, but on the other hand thats the point of heavy level play

I never do reloads. Its cheating, and winning with cheat is a hollow feeling for me. If I make a mistake, I live with it, no matter how bad it is.
Jonta :Great

I think of myself as a specialist in domination wins. I wonder how many GPP I generate, hehe


Jonta :well i guess its a matter of temprement, i like the fact that you can do kind of diffrent strats. and do them in the same game, and still win.
I wouldnt want to get the feel of a turn based Empire Earth game, but as i said, its a matter of temprement


Have a nice day, and thank you fore youre input

Yes, have a nice day, and a good game

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make

I have been undergoing a process in this thread.
I was looking for at way to play without religion and all its benifits and find a stronger alternative.
At first I failed, lost heart, and went back to good old Hinduism.
Later, I tried again and found a satisfactory alternative, as explained in my previous posts in this thread.

I never go for religion, mainly because it isn't important for my games, unless I'm trying to build the Oracle. But even then, its pretty late by the time I get around to discovering Priesthood.

There are more important techs to research like bronze working, pottery, writing, ironworking. If you're a pure builder, then it might be quite different. Also, with pangea maps, the religion comes to you. There's no need to discover it. I have my choice of several, so I am careful to choose, so as to not offend the wrong Civ. Certain Civs, like Isabella, take great offense if you're the wrong religion. And like you say, you want to choose the time to go to war, not let the AI make that decision for you.

My games:

Marathon
Emperor
Standard
Pangea
No Random Civ
All other defaults

Funny that you should mention Cyrus. My present game is with him. Creative is nice for the early resource grab, and having captured cities pop their borders fast.

Expansionist is a decent trait, though not as nice as organized, which is actually the better expansionist trait. As Cyrus, I think its better to wait until my core 3 or 4 cities are economically powerful enough to fuel my expansion, rather than going off early with immortals, capturing several cities, and finding myself in dire economic straits, not able to keep research high.

On the other hand, not expanding some early on can lead to stunted growth, since you don't have enough happiness or health resources. It's a balance. I'll usually trade alphabet to acquire the religious techs and build some temples to improve my happiness, but it's much more attractive to acquire resources, since it doesn't involve building. Although the number of happy resources is limited that early on. Monarchy is the safe answer for happiness, or else the Pyramids if I have stone, for either representation or hereditary rule if happiness is really low, like with a size 10 to 12 capital early on.

But Immortals are very fun. Its hard to resist building a stack of 10 and capturing a few choice AI cities early on. If so, it's probably a good idea to have some access to metal soon, for when the AI decides to get even.