Is religion a must?

[Shaka II]

I say get the religion for free, unless it is an integral component to your strategy, e.g. Asoka. Build a road network and allow open borders, allowing your neighbors to send missionaries to spread their religion. They'll like you for having traded fairly. I like to choose my religion carefully, when it looks safe to adopt one, after I have a military to discourage those who don't like my choice of religion.

[make]

Hmm, perhaps there is no way around getting a religion sooner or later.

I think I wil try a game tonight with the following early priorities and stats.

Emperor
Small map
Marathon
No tech trading
No culture flipping
No culture, diplo or spacerace wins.
Civ.??? Havent decided.
All other things standard settings.

1.
Research bronzeworking to find out where the bronze is.

2.
Research animal husbandry to reveal horses and to hook up specials if I get those.

3
Then Pottery to get those cottages so that I can expand without getting bankrupted.

4.
Go fore Confuciasism. If this succeeds, I will not have neglected my security / expansion early fore religion, and still getting one relativly early.

I dont think the chances are good because research tends to get below 40% around the time I research pottery, due to my expansion....but it will be a good lesson to see what happens.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Blake
Shrines aren't really that profitable, in the early game for a fair while it'll be more profitable to settle great prophets.
Unless you get lucky with lots of unimpeded religious spread the shrine might end up only at 15-20 gold, which is only like 3 towns.

Shrines can be very profitable, like "100% research for most of the the game and still making money" profitable, if you're willing to make them a centerpeace of your stratagy. If you're not, then they're not as great, but a shrine still gives you more per turn then any other use of a great leader except for an acadamy, and of course a shrine in your capital gives you more GP points as well, which is nice.

That being said, the game is complex enough that I wouldn't say that founding a religion early is *always* the best stratagy.

[make]

I have played two games now with my little experiment about waiting fore conficiasism to get religion.

It was the worst games a have ever played.

I choose Washington as my leder because i would imagine that organized and financial would help me research techs faster and help fund my wars.

Ironically, in both games, the reason fore the huge failure was lack of funds and the following research stall and strike

I got cottages build quickly and was carefull to not overexpand, sometimes just pillaging instead of taking cities because I knew the maintanance would kill me.

Focusing on military was a good success in the sense that in both games, I managed to dominate my neighbore. I had only one neigbore on my continent in both games.

The problem was that without religion and any happiness resoucses you reach the happiness cap at around city size 4. Then you have to wait until colloseums, theatres or heredetary rule to deal with this. This just takes forever under the current circumstances.

Even with Washington and cottages, having to live with only size 3, 4 or 5 cities to long is just to much of a disadvantage.

So if I am to conclude anything from this tread, it is that religion if to vital a part of the overall game, that you cant play succcesfully without it, IMO. Atleast not on emperor lvl.

I think it is a pity really, having to be forced to do certain things without any real alternatives That is IMO a bit of a funkiller.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make The problem was that without religion and any happiness resoucses you reach the happiness cap at around city size 4. Then you have to wait until colloseums, theatres or heredetary rule to deal with this. This just takes forever under the current circumstances.

Even with Washington and cottages, having to live with only size 3, 4 or 5 cities to long is just to much of a disadvantage.

So if I am to conclude anything from this tread, it is that religion if to vital a part of the overall game, that you cant play succcesfully without it, IMO. Atleast not on emperor lvl.

I think it is a pity really, having to be forced to do certain things without any real alternatives That is IMO a bit of a funkiller.

I see what happened. You need to get to monarchy very soon for hereditary rule, unless of course you build the Pyramids. Without a garrison force to make +1 happy face for each garrison unit, you can't grow beyond the cap that you had, unless of course, you link up resources, which is necessary to keep growing. Expand, get more resources, consolidate, build courthouses, etc.

It sounds like you were on continents. On pangea, you'll never have a problem getting religion. Usually, you can pick and choose the one you want, like window shopping.

So you built the cottages, but can't grow a big enough pop to use them. I remember a highlands game where I didn't get religion until the medieval era, due to the intense barbs. A highlands map on marathon is brutal, but fun. Build a road network and defend it from the barbs and the religion will eventually flow in. But in that game, I saw the writing on the wall and hustled to monarchy before the pop cap hit at size 6 or 7. With a nice garrison of 6 units, my captial was up to 12 in no time and cottages growing out to villages, etc., financing my empire as 2nd and 3rd city were getting big too.

I played another highlands as Washington and it went pretty much the same way, exept I got contact earlier. But I think it's imperative to keep the capital from hitting the pop cap. Granaries and aqueducts can usually hold off the health cap until resources kick in.

If you have limited contact with other civs, I would go for monarchy before alphabet to get happiness, otherwise, you can trade for it with alphabet, or code of laws.

I rather like the path I took last night (Mao) which went BW -> wheel -> pottery -> writing -> mysticism -> meditation -> priesthood -> Oracle (chopped) -> Code of Law to found Confucianism. Then I went off to alphabet to trade it and get monarchy and ironworking, as I headed for CS. I fought off barbs with hardened, fortified warriors to avoid IW and archery, until after writing and I could pump out libraries to let my borders include my copper. My great scientist went to found an academy in capital, while my great prophet went to building the shrine, already up to +9 gold, mostly spread by river networks through Greece.

But in general, I don't found religions, just catch them, like getting infected.

[make]

I agree with you Shaka. I think my strategy would have worked much more successful if I had made monarchy more of a priority, but as fare as I can remember, monarchy is not on the path of Code of law(conf.)

If I chose to go fore monarchy after all the ancient age war techs, I think it would have been definatly by by to founding any religion before it would be to late to matter anyways.

Well, this is a game of many many choices and you cant do all and get it all.

Perhaps I will try that strat someday, but in my next game, I will go fore the good old hinduism, wich have rarely failed me with a mysticism civ.

I also think that cathing a religion early on would have ben a life saver. This just almost never happense to me in my games because I always play on std. or small continent maps and often have early wars (closed borders).

Oh...and theres a principle thing about cathing religion that nags me. If I spread another nations religion to my cities, and they get the shrine, I am helping to fund there empire....I just dont like that idea. Then I would have to go on a holy crusade to get the holy city. And it had to be with knights, just fore the sake of the context.

[joncnunn]

Depends upon the map and who founds the religion.

If a civ like Japan manages to found a religion, it's very difficult to be "infected" by his religion because it's difficult to get him just to open the borders.

Also if your a land locked civ without rivers flowing to neighbors, it's going to be a while before religion can naturally spread to you.

Originally posted by nullspace
You don't need to found a religion to get a religion. Just open your borders to someone who's got a religion, and you'll be infected soon enough.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make
I agree with you Shaka. I think my strategy would have worked much more successful if I had made monarchy more of a priority, but as fare as I can remember, monarchy is not on the path of Code of law(conf.)

Both code of law and monarchy require priesthood, so there are a few choices to make. Try to found confucianism (maybe get it from the Oracle), go for monarchy for happiness, go for alphabet to trade for monarchy and iron working, etc. It depends on circumstances. If you get alphaabet, there is no guarantee that anyone will have monarchy to trade. Also, alphabet and monarchy are equal in beakers, so you may need another tech or be on good relations with the AI (pleased). But usually, if you have alphabet, you've traded for other techs. Monarchy is strong as it means unlimited happiness. All you have to do is have a garrison, which is a good thing to do anyway for safety, and eventually warmongering. Once all of the new luxuries have been hooked up, the garrison can be used for other purposes. My garrison is mostly made up of old warriors with a few strong units.

I think everyone has run into the same problems, financial problems where you've expanded faster than you can support your new city of army, happiness or health cap leading to stunted growth. I've learned the hard way to get cottages down early and to get monarchy, usually by trade.

I can see if you're playing on small continents, it's going to be isolated and hard to "catch" religion unlike pangea, where it flows down rivers and roads if you have open borders. On a standard pangea, you usually meet all 6 other civs in the first 40 moves or so. That fast. And hope Alexander doesn't live next to you. But if he is, you'd better build up a good army and/or adopt the same religion or no religion.

Originally posted by make

If I chose to go fore monarchy after all the ancient age war techs, I think it would have been definatly by by to founding any religion before it would be to late to matter anyways.

Well, this is a game of many many choices and you cant do all and get it all.

That's one of the most fun aspects. It's a mad scramble in the beginning. You can't pursue all techs at once. You can't build copper units, because your borders haven't expanded. You can't expand your borders, because you don't have writing or mysticism. You have mining to build mines, but not wheel to allow roads to connect them ...

Originally posted by make

Perhaps I will try that strat someday, but in my next game, I will go fore the good old hinduism, wich have rarely failed me with a mysticism civ.

I also think that cathing a religion early on would have ben a life saver. This just almost never happense to me in my games because I always play on std. or small continent maps and often have early wars (closed borders).

Oh...and theres a principle thing about cathing religion that nags me. If I spread another nations religion to my cities, and they get the shrine, I am helping to fund there empire....I just dont like that idea. Then I would have to go on a holy crusade to get the holy city. And it had to be with knights, just fore the sake of the context.

Hinduism is one that can be discovered unlike Buddhism, which the AI usually snags first, unless you have some serious coinage in your starting position. Probably small continents is perfect for getting Hinduism, since you're not likely to get religion until later on, and you have some breathing room. If you do that on a standard pangea map, the AI will often have crowded you in by the time you get around to building settlers. Bronze working to chop in settlers is a pretty consistently safe way to develop on pangea. Stopping to get a religion on Pangea is risky business, but the Oracle to get CoL and Confucianism seems to be a solid strat, since it allows pursuit of BW right off to start your first settler.

[Blake]

I've found there is really no difference between the chances of getting buddhism and hinduism. It's actually fairly likely you'll get either of them.

For example I strictly go for Buddhism (unless I really want Org.Rel early) and I nearly always get it. Polytheists will say the same about Hinduism.

The way I see it, AI's choose at random either Polytheism or Meditation with equal odds (they could also choose neither). My chances of founding either is therefore equal, Meditation is cheaper, so I'll either found the religion earlier, or fail to found it earlier. Both lets me get onto other things earlier, be that worker techs or Priesthood.

It's also noteworthy how early AI's get Monotheism, some of them definitely must be going for it pretty seriously and they would go through Polytheism.

[Yosho]

Hinduism is one that can be discovered unlike Buddhism, which the AI usually snags first, unless you have some serious coinage in your starting position. Probably small continents is perfect for getting Hinduism, since you're not likely to get religion until later on, and you have some breathing room. If you do that on a standard pangea map, the AI will often have crowded you in by the time you get around to building settlers. Bronze working to chop in settlers is a pretty consistently safe way to develop on pangea. Stopping to get a religion on Pangea is risky business, but the Oracle to get CoL and Confucianism seems to be a solid strat, since it allows pursuit of BW right off to start your first settler.

If you start without mysticism, you can still usually get hinduism, because the AI's who are going for religious all go for buddhism first.

On the other hand, the nice thing about buddhism is that, if you can grab it first, then you can also almost always get hinduism as well, because that means you are a few turns ahead of the religious AI's in tech.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Blake

The way I see it, AI's choose at random either Polytheism or Meditation with equal odds (they could also choose neither). My chances of founding either is therefore equal, Meditation is cheaper, so I'll either found the religion earlier, or fail to found it earlier. Both lets me get onto other things earlier, be that worker techs or Priesthood.

Really? It seems like they almost always all go for Meditation first; which makes sense, because it's cheaper, and it's also a more useful tech in general.

[trev]

My last win on emperor I founded a religion late, ie Taoism, but never adopted it as a state religion and never spread it actively or built a shrine to it. I had earlier been infected with Hinduism and Bhuddism which I adopted as they arrived and maintained Bhuddism until Free Religion as it helped maintain trading relations with the AI. It is rare from my experience for the later religions to be adopted by many AI and therefore even if you found them, they should not be adopted in the interest of good relationships with the AI, because at the highest levels, trading relationships must be the greatest priority.

[Alkis2]

When I started playing Civ4 I used to go after Buddism but my results were not so good so I changed to Hinduism. Maybe it's just a coincidense but I am more succussfull with Hinduism.

I think it's a decent alternative to invest some turns and try to get a religion first, then go for Bronze. Btw, it appears that best starting technologies for this style of play are Mysticism/Mining.

[Shaka II]

The Indians.

Blake must have a trick up his sleeve. The one and only time I tried to go for meditation, I got beat by about 3 turns, playing as Capac. If the AI is going for meditation, and I think they usually do, they usually get it quickly. That doesn't seem to be the case with Polytheism.

Having financial for Capac with mysticism as a starting tech, doesn't help much either, since he can't use water squares to make use of the financial trait without fishing, can't make mines or grow cottages. Maybe flood plains and growing fast to size 2 is the only chance to beat the AI?

[make]

It is also my experience that the chance of getting Buddism is very small.

In my latest game I startet of researching Polytheism. It took about 38 turns. I had only one tile with one commerce to speed the research, but I still got it.

Buddism was founded at around turn 20 by Saladin. As far as I can remember It would have taken me 25 turns to get Buddism if i chose to.

This is a pattern I have seen repeated many times, and therefore do not whant to take the risk at trying to get Meditation, althoug it is nice to get to build monasteries to build missionaries to ensure my 2nd and 3rd city benifit from religion early.

Another good thing about hindu., is, if it fails, you are on the road to Judaism.

I played as Capac, and I just love his traits and uniqe unit.
Quechuas rock, especially on marathon where theres many more barbs. With only normal warriors, barbarian archers can be a nightmare.

The last game before this one, I lost 7 warriors to them. When my 7th warrior, sitting fortified in a forest with the wooodsman promo, fell to a barb archer, I retired, fell on my knees in front of Capac to beg him be my leader. He accepted, and my vengeance on barb archers has been brutal ever since.

I have to tell you an amazing thing. With my Quechuas I found Alexanders capital with 3 archers on hills. Here I saw a big chance. If I could take Athens I would not only be rid of an agressive neighbore, but also get a Capital as my 2nd city.
I Fortified 4 Q's outside Athens borders and was waiting for a couple of more to arrive.
Then suddenly Alex made a huge mistake, he made a settler who left Athens with one of the archers as an escort. When they were gone, I moved in and toke Athens with my 4 Q's. Outstanding
Two of my Q's died, but I got a Capital, and oh I forgot to say that I also stole his worker. Athens had a maintinence of -3 for distance to palace but thats ok, considering the gain, and the gab was soon brigded with my 3rd city.

I could never have taken Athens with warriors.

Later my Veteran Quechuas destroyed Alex's last town...made with the settler who left Athens.
After that I ordered the Q's home to Cuzco to be Sacrificed to my Hindu goods .....
Hehe, no they where later ordered to go raze one of Saladins bordertowns and pillage his Bronzemine. They made it, but not before he had made 2 axemen and a spearman. I had him on the defensive so he chose to garrison them in his towns.

The era of the citytaking Q's is now fading and I made peace with Saladin, not whanting those axemen at my citygates.
I cant wait to pick up the fight again when I get my bronzemine running *Evil laughter*

My wellpromoted Q's is still worth there weight in gold fore fighting barb archers.