The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[The keeper]

Vel,

I have a question for you? Did you email the AI this thread so they could also look at it? Because the AI just executed a CS slingshot perfectly.

[jkelly]

Following Vel's footsteps, but without free BW

I thought that I would play through, following Vel's lead. I typically play on Prince, not Monarch, where I accomplish the CS slingshot regularly. I was mostly interested in seeing what pure vertical growth was like, and seeing how I would do without the huge advantage of Bronze Working for free. I'll begin where Vel and my games diverge.

3480: Complete Agriculture, move on to Bronze Working
3280: Received Mysticism from a hut... not sure if this invalidates what I was trying for here. Playing through.
2800: Gold mine completed. Worker moves to mine other hill. Nothing else for Worker to do.
2740: BW researched. Start researching Meditation. One thing I do differently is put the Warriors that I create outside my borders in forest. Hoping for XP before Barbarians show up.
2460: Second mine finished. Worker moves to irrigate plains square.
2440: Final Warrior done. Nothing else to do, so hammers go into a Barracks.
2420: Priesthood started.
2380: Get a Scout from a hut. A little late for the unit to be useful. Woodsman II Warrior heads to Rome nevertheless.
2320: See my first Barbs (they kill the Scout). Time to start moving Warriors in. Only one got any XP from my method.
2200: Priesthood done. Switch to Writing and Oracle production.
2140: Worker moves to irrigate the other Plains square.
1910: Irrigation done. Worker moves to forest to prepare to chop.
1890: Writing researched. Code of Laws started. Sixty turns! Rome switches to Library.
1850: Library pop-rushed, reducing Rome from population six to population three. Back to work on the Oracle.
1830: Isabella offers me Open Borders. I accept. I sign similar deals with the Indians and Americans a few turns later.
1810: Chop done. Worker moves to irrigate flood plain to speed population recovery.
1580: Rome hits population five and a scientist is assigned.
1430: Worker begins chop to hurry Oracle along.
1400: Second scientist assigned as Rome hits population six.
1390: Code of Laws done. I found Confucianism, but don't switch. Begin researching The Wheel.
1340: Delphian piano music! Medieval bells! I switch to Bureacracy. I am getting eight GP points per turn, and have 92/300 done.
1330: Start producing a Confucian Monastary for the +10% science.
1310: The Wheel is done. Start on Pottery.
1250: Monastary done. Start on Temple.
1220: Pottery done. Start on Alphabet, switch to Confucianism so that Rome can grow to size seven. Spain drops the Open Borders agreement immediately.
1200: Switch to Caste System in order to be able to assign the third Scientist.
1080: Merit Ptah is born in Rome. Six turns from Alphabet, and making seventy-four beakers.

Timetable:
Code of Laws: Vel at 1450, me at 1390
Oracle: Vel at 1440, me at 1340
Great Scientist: Vel at 1390, me at... 1080

Remember that this is with me getting Mysticism for free. It seems that I should have switched to Caste System sooner and chopped the library instead of pop-rushing it. Feedback?

I now plan to go back to when I got Mysticism for free, avoid opening the hut that turn, and see how I do without any free techs.

[xxFlukexx]

Re: That experience cap

Originally posted by couerdelion
Does that also mean that those nice “experience hut” only push your little warriors up to level 5 too or do they “add” 5 XP?

N.B. Is it just Napoleon or have people had experience of other civs just declaring war for no apparent reason. Perhaps it’s the aggressive trait but I also notice a tendency of the war to have no logic but to inconvenience me while I’m building a wonder.

Dunno about the huts, usually I think they give your unit 5 exp and it caps at 10 exp, I *think*. Doesn't really make that much of a difference though.

Nah, all Aggressive trait AIs are like that. If for instance I start off next to Montezuma, I abandon all hope of any booming and prepare for war.

The Keeper: Yup, I've noticed it too, which is why I like to use the Oracle as a defensive measure on higher difficulties. I mean I've seen AIs grab Philosophy and Feudalism with the Oracle, nasty stuff seeing Ghandi with longbowmen in 1000 B.C.

[jkelly]

Without either BW or Mysticism

The following is the timeline showing the differences from the game in which I got Mysticism from a hut.

3260: The hut gives my Warrior experience.
2800: Gold mine completed. Worker moves to irrigate flood plain. Hope to get population up faster this time.
2740: BW researched. Start researching Mysticism.
2520: Mysticism done. Start on Meditation.
2220: Priesthood started.
2020: Writing started.
1800: Code of Laws started. Switch to building a Library. Worker started chopping for it a few turns back.
1670: Library chopped to completion. Two scientists assigned.
1340: Code of Laws. Classical era. Found Confucianism. Convert to Confucianism. Finish the Oracle. Get Civil Service. Medieval era. Busy.
1330: Switch to Bureaucracy.
1270: Lost just about everything to Barbarians at this point. Axemen attacking. Turtled in Rome. Had to rush Warriors. Switch to Caste System.
1240: Wheel discovered.
1180: Merit Ptah born in Rome and becomes an academy. Thirty-eight beakers now coming in. Switching to Confucianism and to Caste System were both pointless; the Barbarians made such a mess of everything I never had more than five citizens.

Timetable:
Code of Laws: Vel at 1450, me at 1340
Oracle: Vel at 1440, me at 1340
Great Scientist: Vel at 1390, me at... 1180

This time I brought in the Great Scientist one hundred years earlier. Even so, I am in much worse shape than the last game. The major difference was the Barbarian axes, which has nothing to do with research speed. Never saw an axeman last time, but this time they were all over. Not sure what the lesson here is.

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Tokyo Sexwale
As to yuor second question, I think Barbs will attack you all the time no matter what, so it doesn't matter if you go looking for them. The Barb is a stupid AI - you can use this to your advantage and park some units on for/hills outside his city and his newly built forces will attack you there (and lose usually) and never make it to your lands.

Tokyo, I just happened to reread your reply, and I just realized what you meant by this. Clever! And if there's a good for/hill w/75% defense nearby, a productive promotion engine as well.

That one goes in the playbook, too. Thanks a lot.

[gentle]

Re: Re: That experience cap

Originally posted by xxFlukexx


Dunno about the huts, usually I think they give your unit 5 exp and it caps at 10 exp, I *think*. Doesn't really make that much of a difference though.

Experience-Huts are not capped. I know that because I often play terra map and just let an explorer auto-discover the new wolrd. I often generated a lvl4 or 5 explorer this way.

[fed1943]

I replayed the CSsling,trying to chop a settler,too.First time a founded a 2nd city,but I lorst because my warriors couldn't defend both cities.Then,I retried(playing similary Vel did):
Research:agriculture,wheel,pottery,writing,bronze( slavery),mysticism,meditation,priesthood,code of laws.
Builds:worker,warrior,granary,barracks,more 3 warriors,library(2 scientists,Gscientist,academy),settler(remained in Rome)oracle(civil service,bureaucracy).
Then,iron working,iron connected;hunting,animal,archery,masonry,riding,al phabet,mathematics,monarchy,9 turns to dream;temple,6 praetorians,1 turn to monastery;Antium,granary;war with America to keep iron,Chicago taked.So,the present situation is:year 310BC;Rome 8 pop.,health10/9,happy9/8,18food,18hammers,70beakers;Antium 2 pop.,6food,5hammers,7beakers;Chicago 1pop.,3food,4hammers,2beakers 100%,losing 6g.p./turn;3workers,1missionary,3warriors,6praetorians;+ 1 Gandhi,Isabella,will make peace with Roo now.
1st gold,7th food,6th soldiers,5th land and pop.Barb city
will fall 1/2 turns.(to be continued)

[fed1943]

(continued)
So,it seems to me:
I can now defend myself;have territorial coherence;have 3 (4) cities,will do more 1/2 to N/W;will have horses,cooper,iron,stone and marble,beside some health and happiness resources;a little head on tech;good commerce.
But,my cities are underdevloped,even the land of Rome;my prodution and food are very poor;very little expansion;no intelligence of the map.
What to think about?Is my position very weak,or it's just me who never had played marathon,vertical and AU100 being the only non-creative?
I would like to ear from you;I hope the data I gave will allow it.I will try to attach two screenshots;if I got it,full credit to Alva,if I don't just my fault.
Best regards,

[fed1943]

continued)
So,it seems to me:
I can now defend myself;have territorial coherence;have 3 (4) cities,will do more 1/2 to N/W;will have horses,cooper,iron,stone and marble,beside some health and happiness resources;a little head on tech;good commerce.
But,my cities are underdevloped,even the land of Rome;my prodution and food are very poor;very little expansion;no intelligence of the map.
What to think about?Is my position very weak,or it's just me who never had played marathon,vertical and AU100 being the only non-creative?
I would like to ear from you;I hope the data I gave will allow it.I will try to attach two screenshots;if I got it,full credit to Alva,if I don't just my fault.
Best regards,

[Hermann the Lombard]

Re: Re: That experience cap

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
Dunno about the huts, usually I think they give your unit 5 exp and it caps at 10 exp, I *think*. Doesn't really make that much of a difference though.

The caps have to do with the number of xp that the combat units have when they do battle. If they have 5+ xp they gain no experience from killing animals, and if 10+ they get no experience from killing barbs.

[ It might be >5 and >10 but I think it's >= ]

[Hurin]

Also observe that it will take only 25 turns to research Agriculture. Now, normally, I'm all about getting Bronzworking ASAP, but in this particular case, it's not the best play, and here's why: 22 turns to grow, under optimal growth conditions. 30 turns to make a worker (thus, delaying size two by a total of 8 turns from what it otherwise would be, BUT....five turns before the worker completes, we'll have Agriculture, and before that even, we'll get a border expansion that will bring the corn field into our workable zone. Farming it will add +3 food per turn, which will cut the time to grow to size two IN HALF. This will more than make up for those eight turns "lost" by going worker first, rather than letting the city grow. Also note that by going with Agriculture first, we'll have everything we need to get this city on a paying basis....a farm and a mine. We won't need more than that for quite some time!

This is the only paragraph that doesn't make sense to me. Now, granted, though I'm a long-time Civ player, I've never been into "advanced" strategies and I've just sorta played it casually. So, I'm new to this sorta analysis.

Anyways, my question: Don't you lose a lot more than 8 turns towards pop growth in the situation above? By my understanding/math, you lose the 8 turns of difference, but you also aren't building up any food in the growth bar the entire 22 other turns as well. So, that's 30 turns where you aren't growing.

Then, once you get your worker, you're still several turns away from having the farms built, etc. And you're still at population 1 for another 20-25 turns. . . as you continue to grow at the same slow pace as you would have at 4000 BC. Only after your farm is built many turns later do you seen any benefit at all to building the worker first. And then, you need to produce on that farm for many turns before you'd catch up to the point where you would have been had you had population 2 and been working more than one square.

Now, I'm not saying that building the worker first isn't a good idea --though I'd always (until trying this slingshot routine) been someone who built my capital up to pop 3 before building workers and settlers-- but it doesn't seem like it's as lop-sided towards early worker (by the numbers) than that paragraph states.

Am I just fundamentally misunderstanding something?

[Velociryx]

Yes and no. My math was wrong, so that's part of it, but I hope it was right enough that you got the gist of where I was going.

Consider:

It takes you 22 turns to grow from size 1-2, and WHILE you are growing, you get absolutely NO benefits for doing so (ie - you can't work a second tile). Beginning on turn 23, you reach size two, and grow, thus reaping the benefits of storing up all that food and working a second tile.

On the other hand, you make a worker first....this means no growth for 30 turns, but WHEN you grow (actually, shortly after you start growing, since it takes the worker some time to build the farm), you grow twice as fast, and can thus "make up the difference" (because although the benefits from growing from size 2-3 are not DOUBLE, they are still present)....all that to say that going worker first will net you turn advantage in the long run...ie - you will outgrow and out pace someone who did not go worker first under these conditions.

-=Vel=-

[Hurin]

Well, I just tried it both ways:

Your way, I reached 3 population at 2720 BC. But, I reached that state in a far stronger position:

Worker First
2720 BC
Population 3
Units: 1 Worker, 4 warriors
Flasks: 18
Food: 9-6 = 3
Production: 6 (working forest for third pop)
Improvements: Corn farmed, Gold Mined

---------------------------

"My Way". . . I reached population 3 a bit earlier, but my civilization was far weaker. Reached Population 3 at 3080 BC. But, by 2720 BC (same as above), I wasn't any farther along that 3080. So, that's of little consequence.

Worker after Population 3 Reached
2720 BC
Population 3
Units: 3 Warriors (Worker coming in 3 turns)
Flasks: 11
Food: 9-6 = 3
Production: 3
Improvements: None (No worker yet!)

----------------------

So, as you can see, your way gains you one additional warrior, a worker, 7 flasks/turn, and 3 production hammers. And this lead will only accelerate from this point.

I was surprised that the difference was so great. I figured that going for the earlier population would come closer to offsetting things since that initial worker takes 25 turns. . . then it takes another 22 turns to get to population 2 (minus whatever gains you get from the farm after approx 15 turns of building it).

So, even though I haven't mastered the slingshot routine yet (came close. . . but an axeman cut through my warriors like butter and destroyed my capital along with the Oracle that was three turns from completion on a different map), this tutorial has exposed a glaring flaw in my earliest strategies. I should have seen this earlier! THANKS!

BTW, are there situations where you wouldn't build the worker first? Like, if there were no special food resources nearby?

Best,

H

[Aeson]

Worker first has it's benefits, but so do Warriors or Scouts as well. It isn't that uncommon to be able to steal a Worker from a neighboring AI with a single Warrior, and so building them first can lead to having growth, production into the military units, and Worker(s) in much the same timeframe. With the added benefit of hampering your neighbor's.

Also early exploration is rather important for planning purposes. Knowing how to best approach a situation of course requires you to know what the situation is. Huts can be great too. Grabbing a few extra ones (and thus denying them to opponents) can mean hundreds of gold or beakers, and sometimes even a city capture or even elimination of an opponent.

Also, you can't choke an opponent (very well) with just one unit. 2-3 early Warriors can choke an AI well enough most of the time to keep them from hooking up Copper or Horses, for an easy conquest later on.

Finally, there is safety in having more units. The AI is less likely to attack if you're strong militarily, you can keep barbs from spawning as much or as close, and of course you can better fight them off. (This becomes much more of a factor on the very highest difficulties where barb Warriors and Archers can start showing up by the time you can get a Worker built... and you don't get any bonuses against them.)

The main drawback to military units first is you can't be sure you have neighbors to raid/beat to huts. The biggest consideration is map type. The more land you expect there to be, the more valuable early military units become. The more crowded the map (at least within reason on higher difficulties) the more likely an early raid or choke can pay off.

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by Hurin
BTW, are there situations where you wouldn't build the worker first? Like, if there were no special food resources nearby?

As you say, if there are no specials within your fat cross, or if there's no way to make use of them immediately (eg stuff requiring a road (stone, horses) when you havn't got (or are likely to get) Wheel), 'worker first' is not such a good strategy

Of course ideally you want a coastal start with Fishing & at least one sea resource: work boats don't have the same penalties as land workers, so you can still grow whilst building them..