What is the Best Trait?

[Krill]

The times that I have captured the pyramids, I ran Theology and Police state. Damn, that was good, granting 2 promos off the bat, and later on environmentalism helps alot with health...

[Stageon]

Polls like this would be more useful if it would let you rank the traits from best to worst. As it is most people just vote for financial, and we learn nothing about what they think of the others.

[Aginor]

Fin/Org are the strongest. Shame Washington starts with Fishing and the last UU, preventing him from taking full advantage of the combo. If Huang were Org/Fin instead of Ind/Fin...best leader hands down! The ability to research most capably in a large civ, combined with a decent UU and a fast start with Slavery and the chop one tech away initially and Pottery two techs away - beastly.

Financial is slightly stronger in my mind due to the early game tech boost. Organized comes into its own a bit later, around 1 AD I find. I would argue that if you're choosing your own civ, you'd be foolish not to choose one or the other.

Generally, the best builder civs are Fin/X, and the best warmonger civs are Org/X. Definitely agree that the support of Aggressive or the Expansive/Praetorian combo is the best backup for the pure warmongers. Industrious and Spiritual can be solid backup for the builder types - Huang and Mansa are both very strong turtles. Philosophical and Creative are just a bit soft, I'm afraid.

[Blake]

When using Organized civs I usually run the Organized Religion + Vassalage combination, this allows me to so easily spread whatever religion I desire (be it mine or one I caught off someone else), and gives the building production and unit exp boosts to boot. I'll often stick with this civic combination for the whole game, especially if I intend to end it by Domination.

Since Organized Religion is like "Half Industrial" for purposes of building wonders (and almost like a free forge), it's way too good to pass up. Monotheism is cheap anyway, and getting it reasonably early sets you up to research Theology if you find yourself in a religion-vacuum.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Stageon
Polls like this would be more useful if it would let you rank the traits from best to worst. As it is most people just vote for financial, and we learn nothing about what they think of the others.

It tells me that we now have to nerf financial.

I put organized because of the half priced courthouses, lighthouses, and civics. It's a good mesh with expansive, half price granaries, harbors, +2 health. So, for early conquest, these are a nice combo (Romans).

I think financial is best for the peaceful builder type, especially the one who likes islands or continents, to be left alone. All of those coastal water tiles producing +1 gold. Put the same player on a Pangea map with 6 angry Civs around him and see if he still likes financial as much.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Aginor
If Huang were Org/Fin instead of Ind/Fin...best leader hands down!

Qin having Financial doesn't seem right, Traditional China didn't have much respect for merchants IIRC.

[Hauptman]

Elizibeth... Fi/Phi.

And the troops speak engrish so i know that they aint badmouthing my orders.


The +1g per water tile helps alot with my coastal heavy civs (pyramids, Glighthouse, colosus all are a must!)

[Dominae]

Financial and Philosophical (in that order).

The thing about Organized being "the" warmonger trait is that it assumes successful warmongering, which on the higher difficulties is the real problem - not Maintenance. Once you have annexed a neighbor or two, it's only a matter of time before that land starts paying for itself (which raises the interesting question of whether or not you should pillage Cottages/Towns).

Organized does very little to actually help you conquer those neighbors in the first place - it does not help you research techs that much faster.

I have been playing a lot of Immortal games recently, and found that Organized is only really useful when I'm already winning. To me that is not the mark of a top tier trait.

I agree that it's a good warmonger trait, but it's a complementary one. Compare to Aggressive, for instance, which actually helps you win the war.

Philosophical helps where Organized does not: it helps you jump ahead, or stay in the race. Cashing in a Great Person for a tech 10 or so turns before the AI gets to it then trading it around is the type of play that wins games, and Philosophical makes it that much easier.

It's not the Beaker count or Commerce count over the course of the game that matters, but when those additional units come into play; with Philosphical they come at a time when the end result is still uncertain.

Financial is good because it's non-interactive (like Philosohpical, incidentally), scales with empire size (unlike Philosophical), and relevant on any map type (archiplelago, pangea, whatever).

[Dominae]

Hm, the thread asks for the "best" trait, while the poll asks for my "favorite" - they're not necessarily the same!

As favorites I pick Aggressive and Philosophical. Creative does relieve a lot of stress but does not make me any happier.

[Feyd]

57 votes so far and still none for Expansive...

Woof... looks like they kind of screwed the pooch with that option...

Add to it the fact that you have a total meltdown if you ICS and there's even less reason to care about fast expansion...

Now... if they were to say... double up creative and expansive you might have a contender for at least two or three votes. Would counter the main arguments against the traits (no use later for creative and no use early for expansive)

[Krill]

I was waiting for someone to make that point.

On higher levels, you don't have much of a health bonusk, and so you start having Mr. Icks a lot earlier on. That bonus 2 health can let you run more population earlier on, and you know what they say, pop is power...

[OzzyKP]

I'm surprized by all the support for Organized. I actually assumed that'd get the least votes/attention. I always run Organized Religion, but civic costs never seem to be all that big of a hit against me. Not enough to warrant giving up another more useful trait.

Also, perhaps Financial should be toned down a bit in a patch or expansion pack. Civ4 is supposed to be all about balance, but when one trait is over 3 times more popular than the next best one, that is pretty damn unbalanced. Maybe change it to just give one extra commerce for all cottage/town/etc squares.

[Hauptman]

I'm not buying the idea that financial is over powered. I have just as much fun and do just as well playing Tokagawa as i do playing Elizibeth, I just play them differently is all.

Financial is great for a small 2 or 3 city wonder grab civ, with later expansion. But an agressive mass land grab after a CS slingshot with samurai vs axemen tends to make that feel too powerful. And you can always conquer the wonders you missed... There is no defense vs an amphibiose samurai invasion!~

Financial only gives a real benifit around rivers and with seafood coastal cities. Other than that its slow to come online and isnt all that noticable. probably because I tend to negate it with all those specialists... heh

[gentle]

on no !
i can post here ..damn.

so..erm...*first*
voted spiritual because it is a big turn saver in the beginning.
changing religions and civics the same turn or just switching stuff without giving the other ones a time walk is just nice ^^

[Stageon]

If they do monkey with the traits in a future patch, I hope they do it by increasing the effect of the "weak" ones and not by dumbing down the ones they think are overpowered. I like the variety each trait gives to the experience and would hate to see all the civs get even more alike.