OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and Above (Part Two)

[Terajoule]

thank god its friday

here's the notes and the files.

on to the great library
1380 *yawn*, city size is still confined to 4, 28 beakers generated.
850 a good year. Huayna encountered, and great library built.
700 BC. Everythings peaceful, but i'm falling behind in technology. Time to get the CS, and get a scientist as 2nd great person
500 Someone else finally discovered the alphabet, and another prophet spawns in 475. Narf.
275 CS. Good for so many reasons. I need something to feed the AIs with!
125 Academy founded. 162 beakers now.
1 AD pushing on towards education. 10 turns to go, with near tech equality amongst all 7 factions. City size is 10, and growing. Very, very slowly growing.
175 one AI has Education, 2 Philosophy
250 Size 11, health limit reached for now. 5 amiable Civs, one cautious
400 AI grabs liberalism, whle i had another 4 turns to go. I finished reserech anyways for trade bait, and for free religion
560 Oxford is established. about 350 beakers now.
680 445 beakers in research mode (spare parts). This is not going to improve dramatically in the foreseeable future

[solo]

Welcome to Crossfire!


Beleg,

I tend to agree about the Pyramids, only managing to win one game without that wonder.

Usually early Representation is just too good to get along without.


Terajoule,

I have not given up on games where I start on the same landmassas the AI, and had an interesting one yesterday on a balanced map.

In this one I built the Oracle first, and was first to CoL with a mini-slingshot. I converted to Confucianism, built a few missionaries and infected a few of Montezuma's nearby cities.

Coupled with a few tech gifts, doing this soon made me his best friend and whenever he started a new war (almost immediately after an old one), I would join in when asked. I was quickly surrounded by his cities, as "we" went on to achieve a domination win for him!

Not quite the result I wanted, but achieving some success in surviving on a balanced map is a new experience for me, so I'll be trying this approach again, i.e. try to become best buddies with the most aggressive civ closest to my borders.

(edit: Just saw your second post. I also missed Liberalism by 4 turns, spending 4 turns to research Optics first because I could not trade for it. My beaker totals were similar. Monty won by domination before I reached Rocketry! It hurts not having the +3 per specialist that Representation provides.)

[fluffyflyingpig]

Ouch, just got wiped by Caesar on a Great plains/standard/Monarch/normal conquest game. Took too long to stab him in the back and allowed Rome to get too big. Then I took too many grenadiers out of Paris and got swamped. I think I should be able to win if i replay it without leaving Paris so defenseless.

I'm not sure if great plains or balanced is better suited to OCC conquest. I had 5 cows and iron in my fat cross on this map, very nice. I think the great plains map has more land area to cover though.

Building on your success there solo, if perm. alliances are enabled it should be possible to win on deity by doing exactly what you did and getting an alliance. I think someone brought that tactic up a while back. Should this still count as a OCC win?


EDIT:
Replayed the game, finally got a troop advantage in 1700AD after razing half of Caeser's cities. Unfortunately, now two or three other civs have granadiers, but at least they haven't passed me in troops in the 200 odd years of war with Rome. Once I burn down Rome itself Caeser will be reduced to a handful of widely separated cities and I can turn my attention to the rest of the world. Looks like I'm on track for a conquest win. I think it may have been better to delay riflery as long as possible so city raider macemen can be produced and upgraded.

[Terajoule]

Solo, these sound like some very interesting games. I especially like the mini CoL slingshot. Did you proceed directly to CS, or did you backfill some techs through research or alphabet? How did either choice play out?

I proceeded in the game. Sadly, 2 alternate timelines exist starting with 1335. Mucked up the first one (after a party with too much beer *g*), and managed to starve the city to something tiny before giving up. A war didn't help, but only emphasized poor decision made earlier.

Reload this morning ...which ultimately ended in another defeat. It was fairly close, though.
i changed two things (no, no, i didn't build any military in anticipation of war. Just managed things differently)
i build the hermitage to push the borders after losing a "wheat" to Frederick, delayed the factory till the green face could be fed, and sacrifized one town for a farm,in order to fill up the food storage at city size 13. The war against Louis' 5 units never occured this time, but wouldn't have changed the outcome.
It looked doable till 1842 (internet) whicht revealed that Frederick somehow managed to grab a tech lead for SS techs. He promptly cashed them in, and In 1846 only needed the Stasis. The sheepish AI's but Ceasar wouldn't go to war for me, so Frederick managed the launch in 1878. I was 2 turns shy of the Stasis chamber, and didn't acquire fusion yet, which was supposed to appear via the internet. The beaker output was slaughtered towards the end, of course.

Many saves exist - i only attached the last one. If anyone is interested feel free to ask.

What went wrong the second time? I don't know really. The terrain was properly utilized imho, diplomacy was ok, given the fact of little wiggle room because of the low beaker output.
Some sabotage towards the end might have been a good idea. Building spies, and generating cash with 0% science after the internet. A 1810 AD save exists, maybe i'll test this approach tomorrow.
Any other ideas how the tide could be stemmed?

[solo]

Interesting game, Terajoule. I will look at it in detail later on, after inspecting all of the saves you provided.

In answer to your question, my mini-slingshot to CoL was done using the Oracle.

I have made a few more attempts on balanced maps. Most games usually ended in my early elimination, but in some situations, where I was able to last until Alphabet, I was able to gain enough bargaining power to make a good game out of it.

In my last game, I had a very sweet starting location as Elizabeth, with 3 clams, a fish, corn, 3 elephants and and even Stone within my city's fat x! I was also located at the northern tip of the continent, out of reach of most of the aggressive AI.

Stone allowed me to finish the Pyramids first, and a bit later I was able to chop rush the Great Library, but what really made the big difference in this game were the extra clams, which allowed me to run about 6 or 7 specialists throughout the game.

Enough GP's were produced to make this the strongest city I have had yet in an OCC game, with beakers maxing out over 1000 and base hammers up to 80.

This one started with Louis IV as the closest AI, the others being Genghis Kahn, Asoka, the Japanese, Isabella and Katherine. Isabella was eliminated before I even met her.

In this one I was first to CoL, and founded Confucianism again, and decided to try and build missionaries and convert Louis, my closest neighbor, and then use him as a buffer. However, only two of his cities could be converted, so I gifted my other missionaries, which ended up converting some other AI cities belonging to Genghis Kahn.

So although my original plan did not work, I was able to keep Louis cautious for a long time with numerous gifts and by going along with all of his demands. While not openly aggressive, in many previous games I have found Louis to be a treacherous twit, eventually willing to attack weaker neighbors, such as me.

So, in spite of my efforts to keep him happy, I was eventually attacked and eliminated by him in 1380, while researching Computers. Too bad, as my city was really booming along and I had a good tech lead by then, and thought I had a really good chance for a SS win later on.

So this promising game would have to "count" as just another learning experience.

I decided to reload from a save made in the 1100's and try a different tactic. Genghis Kahn had become quite strong during the game and had eliminated Catherine (the early AI tech leader) shortly after she discovered Liberalism first. However, Kahn was behind in techs, so I had been gifting them to him regularly, so was on his good side and was able to bribe him to attack Louis.

This diverted Louis's attention from me long enough to build a bunch a redcoats and frigates, which I had in place by the time Kahn demanded that I join him in the war against Louis. Once I was in it, I was also able to bribe Asoka to join in, and Louis's power rating dropped like a rock.

Kahn, the strongest (and dumbest) AI, became my comrade in arms, best friend and closest neighbor, and in the process of beating on Louis he had razed some French cities along my border, which netted me a few extra resources, too.

So during this replay, I was first again to Physics and Computers and was way ahead in the SS race with only 3 parts to go when the game ended abruptly in a diplomatic victory for Kahn! No matter, as this replay didn't count.

More important is that I came away from this game knowing that a SS win on balanced deity maps is much more likely than I previously thought. If one can survive the early part of a game, religion and diplomacy can often be used with success to manipulate the AI and avoid being attacked by them. However, there is still plenty of room for error or fatal misteps.

The start for this game was one of the best I've had, so I'll attach it below. I expect others might be able to turn it into an SS win. I also included a save with my city in it's prime, completing my SS 3 parts ahead of Asoka, after continuing the game after Kahn's diplomatic win several turns earlier.

[Terajoule]

Solo, i think you misunderstood my question^^. I want to know with what research choices you followed up on code of law, and how it played out.

OCC52 sure looks doable. Shame about Khans diplomatic victory. That pitfall is a new one.
As you observed, 5 food resources for 16 or 17 food surplus guarantee a boom of great people, and will provide the foundation for an incredible amount of mined or workshopped hammers later on. Of all the files posted to date its probably the best one to practice....
In the Mansa game, which was deliberately picked for a "random" start, i came within 10 or 15 turns of winning with only 5 food surplus (sheep, 3 floodplains). If i executed the endgame just a wee bit more cleverly/creative, it could have been done. This is a very encouraging result. Imo this means that *any* balanced or normal continental start (no difference, really) could be won after practicing on easier maps. The smallest mistake, however, would probably be the last as we both learned.

[solo]

Okay, if I now understand correctly, after CoL I researched Civil Service, immediately followed by Paper and Education, using these to trade for the earlier techs that I needed.

I almost always research deeper into the tech tree, rather than going back for techs I've bypassed, unless there is a tech I have an urgent need for. I think there is too much risk of falling behind when backfilling.

Your other point that any average site should be enough to produce a win is a good one, but to me the biggest problem on balanced maps is still keeping alive long enough in order to do this. Having extra food just makes a the task a bit less daunting!

[Terajoule]

hehe, i'm dense. I still didn't get the information i'm looking for. Alphabet and CS are key milestones to survival, so everything concerning early acquisition is vastly interesting. Please forgive my insistent inquiry

Did you conduct your slingshot *before* or *after* starting research for alphabet? If you did it before, what is the reasoning for picking a religion over alphabet?

If you did it after alphabet, and given your experience: When does the AI normally grab the Oracle? If the answer is "late enough", your strategy of researching alphabet while building the oracle in parallel is fantastic, and will happily be exploited in future attempts.

[solo]

No, it's me not understanding your question yet!

In that particular game (not #52, but the one described earlier using a spiritual leader), I believe research started and went as follows:

I had Mysticism at the start, so began with Meditation and followed that with Priesthood and then began building the Oracle. After Writing was researched, I had a choice: start researching Alphabet and use the Oracle a bit later for CoL or start researching CoL and use the Oracle for Alphabet. Since the Oracle mini-slingshot was used for CoL, I got it early enough to found Confucianism. Alphabet came a few turns later by regular research.

(In this game, I started with 2 gems in my city limits, so early research was faster than usual.)

From your game descriptions, I think you usually use the Oracle to go for Alphabet first, and research CoL afterwards.


I also got to CoL before the AI in #52, and was surprised to do so, since in that one I had gone to Alphabet first, and followed Alphabet by Literature for the Great Library. However, when I can get the Pyramids with Elizabeth, my city grows so quickly, that by the time I start researching CoL, it doesn't take very many turns to learn it.

One difference in #52 vs. my previous games with Elizabeth is that in previous games I was going to Philosophy before heading to Code of Laws. In #52, I did not pick up Philosphy until after Education. The extra specialists available from CoL's Caste Sytem made me place less of a priority on getting Philosophy for Pacifism.

As for your other question about the Oracle, my experience is that it must be built quickly, since the AI usually go for it early.

[fluffyflyingpig]

Victory on Monarch via conquest! Normal speed, standard great plains map, default number of AIs, Napoleon of France. The last English city was put to the torch in 1939.

Kill count: 142 catapults, 112 rifles, 77 granadiers, 77 knights, 57 longbowmen, and 84 cities burned to the ground. 3(!!!) level 8 units, two granadiers and one cavalry.

Specifics: CS slingshot followed by a beeline to steel. Grabbed all the early wonders thanks to 5 cows + iron in my fat cross. The pyramids, GL, and Citzen Itza (for AI denial) are very important. Since I had so many hammers in Paris, I didn't go for a great person farm with philosophy and built cottages instead of farms. Sent my first SoD of macemen and catapults out to kill capitols after metal casing, and carried on from there. The objective of each SoD is not to eliminate a civ but to raze capitols and important cities without letting the remaining AIs expand. After steel, I went for Mil. Trad. for West Point and cavalry, then Artillery followed by Assembly Line for Infantry. No other civ managed to get artillery , the highest tech troop I faced was redcoats/rifles.

Problems occurred when Caeser got too powerful after killing Fredrick. Because Caeser was warring with Fredrick, I had decided to attack the other AIs first. Caeser rolled over Fredrick and quickly amassed a point and power lead. I was able to bribe Alex to attack Caeser and backstab Caeser once I got cannon. I did have one issue in that I had to reload after moving most of my city defense force out of Paris with my attack force and not noticing for a few turns. My stack of over a dozen cannon and granadiers only razed two cities before being swamped by catapults and melee units. After that I was bogged down with some 200 years of war with Caeser until Rome was torched. With Rome broken, the rest of the game was mopping up the map with progressively stronger units.

Rome got WAY to strong this game. Thanks to cannon, was able to knock them back down to size . If it wasn't for Fredrick's millitary ineptness, Rome would never have been so powerful, and I would have won a lot sooner. Still the power graph is pretty impressive, don't you think?




With good enough starting terrain, conquest wins on Monarch shouldn't be too hard. Without Iron you're doomed though. Emp looks like it will be a challenge.

It's fairly amusing to watch the replay and see the SoDs cut swaths of destruction through the map.

[fluffyflyingpig]

oops, forgot the saves.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Solo, why did you chop for the GL in #52? If you grabbed the Pyramids, wouldn't it be better to wait for the almost inevitable great engineer and rush it with him. This would let you save those forests for the Epic, which you can afford to get later since its not a world wonder.

Also, are you skipping Drama. Unless I found a religion, I usually have trouble getting one spread to me so I often struggle with happiness. Are you going to be able to reach your growth cap without Globe? Thanks.

[Terajoule]

thanks Solo! Thats exactly what i wanted to learn

Fluffy, massive congratulations, and thanks for the detailed description.

Beleg, i consider the globe theatre something to be avoided even after trading the tech from the AI. The only thing it ever does is creating great artists. And those are really to be avoided.
The only time unhappiness is an issue is in the very beginning. Even then its more important to go for literacy and CS first rather than wasting beakers towards drama.
With respect to wonder rushing: Sacrificing the 3 permanent hammers from the engineer for the GL (a wonder which is practically guaranteed, no matter how slowly one builds) would be a poor decision in the long run.

[Terajoule]

Darn. I found a new project, which confirmed a creeping suspicion. Playing normal sized, balanced Deity games *without* clicking one city challenge. Absolutely no chance so far. The six city prerequisite for Oxford is killer.
Can anyone recommend a reliably working strategy?

[solo]

ffpig,

I've downloaded the saves and will want to take a look, of course. Great game! Now do it on Emperor!

Beleg,

With philosophical Elizabeth, that first Engineer appeared many turns before I got to Literature, so I put it into the city. As Terajoule says, if the AI lack Literature, you have a good chance to finish the GL first, especially if you add some hammers with chops. Also, on balanced maps, the AI are not as quick building early wonders as they are on island maps.

In #52, happiness was not a problem. I got 3 for the Pyramids, 1 for ivory, 2 more from religion, and a few more with commodity trades, then another with a colosseum, etc., so there are many ways to keep adding happiness. Late in the game, when I went up to size 21, I built a theater and the Globe, since by that time, I had plenty of Scientists and Engineers in my city, so did not care if I got an Artist as the next GP.

If happiness becomes a problem in a particular game, then I will go to drama earlier than I did in #52. Each game is a bit different, requiring a flexible strategy.

Terajoule,

I am so happy I have finally managed to answer the right question!

Now this new question puzzles me, too.

Why not just start another game using the OCC option, and why would you want to play with only one city without clicking OCC?

Or are you just trying to win a normal SS deity game without building more than a few cities?