OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and Above (Part Two)

[solo]

Skatterbone,

All my games posted here so far have been on standard size maps at normal game speed. For immortal and deity, I have been using Archipelago or Islands maps. I won 3 times at immortal, so decided to try deity. So far only 1 win there, but I've come very close in about 3 other games.

Deity is a big step up from immortal, and it's much harder to get a tech lead. I think additional deity SS wins will not be too frequent. All of my games so far have been SS, but I may switch over to conquest after reading about the adventures of some of the others playing this way!

I think the conquest players are starting out on smaller maps and moving up in size after a win or two.

[Hauptman]

ROFL @ Blake, Im so gonna do that. You playing those @ emporer?

Definitly need an early UU to get the best effect against the barbars.... Mansa Musa or Mantezuma for an OCC?

[fluffyflyingpig]

I think conquest wins on standard/normal are possible up to monarch or emperor. I just won a prince game on a standard balenced map with napoleon, same strat as before. I wonder if conquest games on island maps are easier than balenced maps. I guess I'll try that next.

My experiment with agressive AIs didn't go so well, AIs seem to want to attack me more than each other. I haven't tried raging barbs before, but I think the barbs would slow me down more than the AIs, since usually go with a CS slingshot from the start.

[mdbill]

ffpig,

I'm not a conquest player and I thought conquest wins on standard size at the Diety level would be very difficult, but it turns out Conquest (or Domination) wins on Diety/standard size (epic speed and slower) are currently won routinely. These are done on regular maps like Balanced or Pangaea. Islands are probably much harder because you need transportation.

I'm assuming someone could use the same strategy to win an OCC game. Who wants to be the first to do it?

[fluffyflyingpig]

Dunno. I've been only playing normal speed games. Slower speeds would make matters considerably easier for conquest wins. I wanted to try islands to see if the map slowed down the AIs more than transport hurt the player. After an inital play through, I don't think it's worth it.

I want to see how far I can get on normal before I change the game speed. I'm going to give standard/normal/monarch a shot next.

[solo]

I am happy now!!!

I finally have been able to produce a deity win without any "issues", completing my SS in 1929, one SS part and one SS tech ahead of Isabella.

I played as Elizabeth on a standard sized islands map against 6 AI, using the "no cheating" option. In this one no replays of any of the parts of the game were needed as in my previous (and only) deity win.

The starting position featured Stone, Clams, Corn, and two Gems within my city. Later on Copper appeared where I built a cottage and Aluminum popped up quite late (after all casings and thrusters, of course) as a latent. Within my boundaries, I also had Coal, Rice, more Gems, and Uranium. All I was lacking was Iron, but I was able to trade for this with Bismarck.

If there is Stone nearby, Elizabeth has a decent chance of finishing the Pyramids before any of the deity AI. If that can be accomplished, she is very well suited for deity games. A workboat first provides a quick burst of growth and adds 3 commerce. Then I made a worker to mine and hook up the Stone and Gems. Finally another warrior to hold the fort, before starting on the wonder. The first warrior kept an eye on reducing barbarian spawning locations.

The extra early commerce from clams and gems got me off to a fast start. Just as Literature was discovered, my first GP, an Engineer, appeared and was used to rush the Great Library. After that it was on to Philosophy, Civil Service, Liberalism (I was first there and picked Atronomy as the freebie) and after stopping at Chemistry for frigates, I went on to Computers. Then, after stopping for Biology and Medicine, I went to Rocketry and followed this with the Internet, in the usual way.

Later I was first to Genetics, which allowed me to win, since no one else got there in time to beat me to the SS win. (I had been 1 part behind with 3 to go).

Besides Isabella, the backstabbing crew included the Japanese and my old nemesis, Montezuma. Things stayed peaceful very long into this game, and since the Japanese and Aztecs were so far behind in techs, I could afford to throw them a free tech now and then to keep them happy. I did not encounter Isabella until very late into the game. This was a good thing, as she couldn't attack someone she didn't know yet!

As I was headed towards Computers, Mansa Musa offered me a Defensive Pact, and since he was the strongest one on the map at that time, I accepted. Soon after a war broke out between Mansa and Montezuma, and I had to join in. Montezuma had two cities on my island by then, but I had prepared by building a string of forts along our border and manning each one with a SAM infantry. These held up well against his Cavalry charges, and after 20 turns or so, Mansa joined in and took over Monty's cities.

Being allied to Mansa, the strongest AI, worked out well, except later when he slipped down a notch and Isabella took over the lead. I had been kind to her all game, gifting techs, etc., but when I was about half way done with my SS, she attacked with her fleet, wiping out my own. My city was reduced from nearly full size down to size 14 by the time I was able to make peace. I was just very happy that this was only a sea battle, since I was able to keep popping out SS parts at full speed during her naval attacks.

When I made peace, I only had 3 parts or so to go, and was able to survive long enough for a welcome win. The most satisfying part of it, was that Montezuma had been wiped off the map by Mansa shortly before the game was over! The same Montezuma that had ruined two other promising games!

Like I said before, I'm happy now!!!

Below is a zip of the start and finish.

[korn469]

awesome game solo! congratulations!

[rjmatsleepers]

Well done Solo.

Perhaps we now move on to trying to achieve the earliest OCC space ship finish.

RJM at Sleeper's

[fluffyflyingpig]

Great work solo! Time to give conquest a shot? =D

[Terajoule]

A nice start to practice deity is attached. SS win was tested, diplomatic might work as well.

Gandhi, deity, standard size great plains.
There are plenty of resources(4 Cows, 2 Wheat, Gem) in the fat cross, but absolutulely no strategic resources later on.
And a very agreeable bunch of AI's as i learned later on.
The city size was 14, it was allowed to grow after state property halfway through the spaceship.

I believe key was the early aquisition of the oracle (for alphabet) and pyramids with the extra hammers from the cows. They were truly sacred for this India^^
The mid-game was not very exciting. Maintaining good relations with the AI to prevent war and to help with the beeline to rocketry was the focus. I almost succeeded - only one war was declared by Isa bloody Bella from Spain. Later on I conducted a few experiments with bribing the leading AIs into war, and liked the preliminary results. A new tool to be exploited

The space race went poorly (Mansa was down to two parts when i had four to go), so out of desperation i instigated quite a few wars towards the end to kill their tech rate. To my surprise that effort was sufficient to achieve launch in 1864. Isa, who completed Apollo only 5th, but couldn't be dragged into war on the *right* side, managed to finish 2nd, while Mansa still needed two parts. lol.

Next goal: Balanced (Though i don't see myself coping with the lack of early hammers). I definitely still need a cherry-picked starting position to succeed.

[solo]

Welcome Terajoule!

I have downloaded your start and will give it a try, although I never have much luck in avoiding wars with Isabella, nor have had the means to bribe the AI to attack each other!

Thanks, korn, RJM and ffpig!

It certainly wasn't from lack of trying!

So close, and so much frustration in earlier attempts was making me want to play conquest instead!

[Terajoule]

hmmm, island maps are funny. I never tried one before, but couldn't resist OCC50 (those gems turn me on) from Solo.
The AIs research is truly on slo motion on islands....Starting with education i left them in the dust tech-wise, and launched in 1935, whith the closest competitor being three parts behind.
The Internet was a complete waste because i failed to gift them the prerequisites for "green" spaceship techs. it was 3 am, so the brain already went to bed.
So i spent 20+ years in the 19th century turning hammers into beakers. Another lesson learned, because speed *does* matter.

P.S.: Gifting techs generously and often seems to be the key to avoid wars. The closest battle in the game was against a barbarian triere.

[solo]

Terajoule,

I have downloaded and looked at your save in which you completed a SS in 1864, and am amazed that you were able to outresearch the deity AI on a plains map, and complete the tech tree by 1864!

I was also surprised at how many early wonders you were able to complete ahead of the AI: Stonehenge, the Oracle, the Pyramids, the Great Library and also the Hanging Gardens!

Wow, all of this is very impressive! I feel lucky to complete more than two early wonders at deity, let alone 5 like you have managed.

Could you provide more details about how you managed to do that, and also more details about how you were able to research so quickly at deity?

How many beakers was your city producing at its peak, and at what stage in your game were you able to move ahead of the AI and establish a tech lead?

On any maps except island (where the AI are slower at research, as you mentioned in your second post), I have never been able to overcome the deity AI tech lead, so would like to know what it is that you are doing to be able to manage this.

More details, please!

One other thing I'll mention is that you might have been lucky to finish your spaceship when you did. The reason I say this is because when I loaded your 1864 save and pressed enter to end the turn, I was attacked immediately afterwards by the Capac. Delhi was captured a short 10 turns later. I am amazed that your weak defense was able to defer AI attacks as long as it did!

On any but island maps, I have always been attacked and eliminated much earlier in deity games. In Civ II, it was easy to quickly attain a tech lead and keep the AI happy with tech gifts, but I have found this is not the case in Civ IV. Again, I have to ask how are you able to manage this on a plains map?

[Terajoule]

Solo,
let me try to answer your questions:
With wonders its easy. Its all about the cows, man . In contrast i only managed to build pyramids and the library in OCC50.
Let me explain: In the Ghandi game the city "core" (4 Cows, 2 wheat, 2 Mines) produces 27 food, 20 hammers, thats 11 food surplus for specialists or more mining and such, and 30 hammers/turn towards wonders (industrial leader)
I attached a savegame with the begining of pyramid construction in 2120 BC. I didn't create any other saves i'm afraid, but wanted to preserve such a promising start, and keep playing even if the production failed.
Thanks to the rapid spread of the AI there was no need to waste a single hammer in unit construction. The barbarians never had a chance to show up. That definitily helped with early wonders, and is a strategy i pursue in all my OCC games (admittedly i only finished two on deity, and failed twice thanks to conquest by barbarians or Monty)
Last but not least, there might be a hidden advantage of non-island maps:
During the early days the AI is still busy establishing its cities, and producing units. On island maps they are already established by 2000 BC, and idle enough to pursue any wonders they qualify for.

With Gandhi i was never able to establish a tech lead! Quite to the contrary, only alphabet created a short phase of equality, but it was downhill from there.
Sure, i lead by one or two techs in the chosen beeline (even grabbing astronomy through liberalism), but was way behind in all over techlines. I desperately tried to fill the gaps towards rocketry through the AI, and needed to ignore all the social techs and the path to industrialism before the internet provided them as freebies. So the internet netted me 8 or 10 techs on completion, including robotics! Later on it also provided all the missing spaceship techs but one. The AI is *fast* on non-island maps. My own beakers never exceeded 700, even running "research". Plains and Ghandi don't create a lot of trade, hehe. So the space race was not won by out-teching anyone, but by very rapid construction as soon as anything was available, and by stirring up wars among the competition.

Capac *does* attack right on hitting enter, doesn't he?! I'm not sure if meeting a victory conditions carries a huge diplomatic penalty, or if it was a war he planned in advance. Sure as heck i didn't fiddle with diplomacy in the last few turns, so he must have slipped under the radar....
I don't actually believe any sustainable number of forces would deter AI attacks - keeping them happy through gift of antiquated technology and meeting their tribute requirements seems to be the only way. Building units is not part of my OCC startegy - i'd rather turn hammers to beakers once the units start to carry upkeep.

[solo]

Many thanks for your prompt and detailed reply and for the additional save file that you have posted. I can certainly see how great your production was and that you had enough extra food for many specialists.

I have not been able to beat the deity AI to Liberalism yet on any non-island maps that I have tried, but will give this a try using the start you provided. Having all of those cows must make a big difference, but I would assume the AI would also have plenty of their own, too, to boost their own progress.

I have just two more brief questions to test your patience!

1) How were you able to survive Isabella's attack in the middle of the game?

2) In how many deity games have you been successful in surviving, given the tendency of the AI to attack weak opponents?

In my own games so far on non-island maps, I have always been attacked and eliminated before attaining the means to gift any antiquated techs or to convince any of the AI to attack each other, but I lack experience on plains maps, which may play out differently.

I agree that trying for a very strong military will not help since the human player will always be in last place (and considered weakest) in that department anyways, but I have only suceeded in games where I have had enough of a defense to survive one or two attacks.

Although things can be done (gifts, giving tribute, maintaining parity in military techs, inciting wars) to reduce the chances of being attacked, I have yet to see a consistent way of preventing them, altogether. To me it still looks like luck is the most important factor!