OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and Above (Part Two)

[solo]

It appears room is running out in the first thread devoted to this topic, so I will start Part Two here. Here is a link to part one for anyone wanting to refer to it:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144365

Also, I will insert the text from the latest post below, since I believe there was not enough room in Part One to accomodate it:

Hello solo,

fluffyflyingpig has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and above - in the Civ4-Strategy & Education forum of Apolyton Civilization Forums. Here is the reply:

~~~ fluffyflyingpig ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Balenced maps == death. You get surrounded by too many AIs and attacked. I haven't had any luck on balenced maps yet. =\

Anyway, I managed a Monarch win without too much trouble. Gandhi, standard pangaea. Luanched in 1977 four parts ahead of Cyrus, who was dying at the hands of Alex. Could have been faster except for the fact that I had no aluminum and was too close to the equator for the space elevator. I had to sabotage Cyrus's aluminum untill Alex decided to attack.

I was able to build up a tech lead fairly easily even with the patch. Oracle slingshot to CoL in 1000 BC, picking up Stonehenge and the Pyramids first worked, even with no stone AND a stop to grab a couple of worker techs. That and grabbing both GLs gave me the tech lead for the rest of the game. First to Liberalism, first to Physics, only one to Fusion. Computers -> Rocketry -> Fiber Optics/Internet seems to still be the way to go.

The AIs ARE more agressive now though. Using defensive pacts is vital. And I got lucky on the start. Founded on an isolated peninsula and had Iron pop from a mine after 3000 odd years.

Saves:
Start
End

Guess I'll give Emp and Imortal another try with the patch. Monarch is still possible.

[solo]

With the new patch I agree that balanced maps = death, as well as any other kind of map where the human player starts on the same landmass as one or more AI.

I think once you are attacked, it's the end. I think if all the human player did was research military techs and build as many defensive units as possible, there is no escaping the lowest military rank anyways, and that attacks from the AI are inevitable just because of rank.

I've found this to be especially true at deity, where the AI get the better units quicker and press their advantage well before defensive pacts or other diplomatic options are available.

As an experiment, I filled one OCC city with 8 archers ASAP, was attacked anyways and barely survived, only to be attacked again a few turns later and wiped out.

I tried flying under the radar, which works about as well as maxing out the defense. I was attacked and eliminated again fairly early in the game.

In another attempt, both my neighbors had the same religion, so I converted and did enough favors to get both of them pleased with me. Then, for no apparent reason other than my military weakness, one of them attacked me and wiped me out.

On island maps, or other starts where the human player begins in an isolated spot, it is possible to survive, since the AI is limited in the amount of units that can be thrown into an amphibious assault.

Even on deity, a landing of 20 or so units can be dealt with, since these attacks usually don't come until ships with more capacity become available. There may be just enough time to catch up in research and build a better defense.

Unless someone unlocks the secret that guarantees no AI attacks on balanced maps or continent style maps, we may be limited to the "Always Peace" option on these maps when playing OCC at higher levels.

Do other players agree?

[Diadem]

I haven't had much time to play lately, I was away with christmas. I haven't quite kept up. Has anyone already managed a fair deity win (fair as in: no cheating, at least small size map, no tweaking opponents, no extra easy options like 'always peace' or 'no tech trading').

And it sounds like things have become a lot harder with the new patch. I think deity wins will now be forever impossible.

[Diadem]

Do AIs suffer from war weariness by the way?

Is it perhaps an idea to declare war on every single AI as soon as you complete Globe Theatre. On a naval map, you should be able to do this before they have caravels. Meanwhile you build a lot of defence, of course

If you just keep refusing peace, in the end war weariness should drag them down.

Unless of course the game gives bonusses to the AI.

[solo]

Hi Diadem,

I managed a deity win with the new patch using the "no cheating" option.

This was on a standard sized islands map, and would have met all the conditions you specified had I not replayed two portions of the game, from saves made while the game was in progress. More details are available near the end of part one.

Early declarations of war are an idea I haven't tried, but sounds like it may have some promise. If nothing happens for a long enough period you could negotiate a truce as soon as anyone's hordes show up! However, surviving the next war, when it is declared by that AI might be a little harder.

I don't know whether the AI suffers from war weariness. My guess is probably not.

[fluffyflyingpig]

Dunno if trying an early war would be worth it. My guess is not, as the negitive modifiers would make any future diplomacy all but imposible, leaving you to die in an invasion at the hands of one of the people you ticked off.

To summarize part 1: (appologies to everyone who's strats I stole)

Basic Ground Work:

1) The Civ and leader chosen are optional.

2) The default number of random AI opponents is used.

3) The type of map used is optional.

4) Standard game speed.

5) The options selected in the next section are OCC (One City Challenge) and No Cheating.

6) The OCC player's goal is a space win, though all other victory options have been left open as options for the AI opponents.

Leaders: Ind, Fin, Phi, and Spi seem to be the most useful traits. Take your pick of Civ with 2 of those four traits. Success has been had with Gandhi, Qin, Saladin, and Elizabeth, amongst others.

Great People: Turn them into super specialists. Get the accadamy, maybe build a shrine or rush the space elevator, but thats about it. Every 3 extra beakers counts.

Civics: Representation and Bueraucracy are obvious. Serfdom and Free market are best for most time as well. Only religion civic choice worth consideration. For Spi leader it's also obvious - use whatever civic to meet the need of current stage. Otherwise Pacifism seems the most useful up till near the very end when Free Religion's tech boost helps.

Stratagy: Early game you want to build most, if not all of the following: the Pyramids for Representation, the Oracle for the free tech, the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse for the research boost, with other wonders nice but not nessicary. Reaserch should be done with an eye on a Civil Service or Philosophy beeline and grabbing Alphabet to trade for the techs you missed. After grabbing CS and Philo and backfilling techs you missed get Fudalism for longbows before going for education and liberalism. Get Astronomy and Riflery before beelining for Scientific Method-> Physics-> Computers-> Rockerty-> Fiber Optics. Physics for the free GP, Computers for the Lab, Rocketry for Apollo, Fiber Optics for the Internet. You NEED to get the Internet built to keep up with the AIs' tech pace. The Space Elevator is nice, but not worth it unless you rush it with an engineer or cash.

Consistant wins on Monarch+ seem to be impossible. Victory is too map dependant and your single city can be wiped out too easily. But even with the patch, victory is possible, even on Diety. Game time doesn't seem to be a problem so much as loosing the space race or losing by AI attack.

[Diadem]

I take my hat off solo.

Maybe not playing for a few days has left me rusty, but I just can't do it... I've been trying that savegame of yours, but I can't even get the pyramids!

You have to tell me your early game strategy. Which techs do you start with? Do you start with a worker, or do you wait for a bit? Spell it out, please

[Blake]

War Weariness: I'm pretty sure that "Wars of the Words" don't actually cause war weariness, if both "combatants" stick to their own territory there is no weariness, it's only invading forces which actually cause the WW. (and of course Nukes, they seem to rack up WW like crazy)

[solo]

Originally posted by Diadem
I take my hat off solo.

Maybe not playing for a few days has left me rusty, but I just can't do it... I've been trying that savegame of yours, but I can't even get the pyramids!

You have to tell me your early game strategy. Which techs do you start with? Do you start with a worker, or do you wait for a bit? Spell it out, please

I was actually lucky to complete the Pyramids, because in most games the deity AI finish them around 2000 BC, give or take 400 years. When I was building them in this game, I was running late and thought I would have to quit the game early.

My completion date was 1440 BC, so I was surprised not to have been beat. Before they were done, the AI had already completed 4 other wonders, so perhaps by "picking" other wonders they helped me out.

Maybe the AI made different early wonder choices in your own attempts, or perhaps barbarians or some other random event slowed down the AI who were building the Pyramids in my own game.


I will outline my starting procedure as best as I can remember it, although I expect yours was probably quite similar. I forget now about how many huts there were, but do remember getting a scout from a hut, who I used to explore and later as a lookout over tiles that might spawn barbarians.

1) I founded on the hill to the left of the starting position, to put less sea and more land within my fat x.

2) Masonry was researched first while a worker was built. The Pyramids were started immediately afterwards.

3) The Wheel was researched next for roads. Third was Hunting, so I could build a camp. After that it was Pottery, Writing, Alphabet, Literature, etc.

3) First step for the worker was to build a farm on the corn.

4) Next step was to build a quarry on the marble and connect it with a road. This added hammers and commerce.

5) Then I believe a camp and connecting road was next to get ivory. This allowed size 5 and provided another hammer.

6) Somewhere along in here I added another farm to speed up growth, but am not sure in what order this happened.

7) Also, I believe the worker added a mine to the hill north of my city while the Pyramids were being built to get more hammers. Again, I don't exactly remember when.

So, I suspect it was probably just luck, but after the Pyramids were mine, I knew I might be able to get a very good game going. The marble was especially helpful in speeding up the completion of the Great Library and National Epic. Adding these two wonders so quickly gave me a good jump in research and GP production.

[Cort Haus]

Wow, I see this thread has moved on to Deity OCC. I'd better stop reading ....

[Diadem]

Wow, your strategy is quite different from mine!

I usually start with a warrior, and build a worker as soon as my city is size 2. I think I did that too, this game. After that I built a fishing boat for that clam within the fat cross. After that a second worker and then I started on the pyramids, letting both my workers chop (I had bronze working by then).

You started much, much, earlier on the pyramids. I guess that explains why you got it, even without chopping.

I'm not really used to island maps yet. I usually let my first warrior explore while I garrison my city with my 2nd one. On island maps there's not much exploring to do, though.

Building the workboat was a mistake. I already figured that out. You don't actually need the clam that early, since you can't grow beyond size 5 anyway.

How did you survive against barbarians though?

[amicus curiae]

I've found that on island maps you can avoid barbs pretty easily by placing two or three warriors around your island to eliminate any fog of war. This pretty much keeps you safe from barbs if you do it soon enough. I have been chopping a couple warriors early and then placing on hills and such to eliminate fog of war. Of course this may be impossible if your island is too big...

[solo]

On islands barbarians are less of a problem, especially after your boundaries have grown. Since my city was centrally located, there wasn't much space left for barbarians to spawn in. I also had a scout from a hut covering a wide area from a hill outside of my city.

Even so, some barbarians did make an appearance just before I finished the Pyramids and they pillaged the mine I had built on the hill north of the city, but my warrior defending in the city held them off later when they attacked there.

If there had been more of a threat, I would have interrupted the Pyramids long enough to build as many defenders as needed. The nice thing about interrupting a wonder build in Civ IV is that you can contine it later from where you left off. It's not like you are committed to it until it is completed as in previous versions of the game. So I always start wonders ASAP in deity.

On island maps I've found that starts in the north and south islands have more barbarians, especially more archers, and that they seem to spawn from polar areas more often than they do from the edges of islands that are completely surrounded by water.

I suppose with fewer spawning tiles on islands, the odds of barbs appearing are much lower. On the smaller islands I had been using on Archipelago maps, barbarians hardly ever appeared, but these islands lacked enough land for a good chance of a deity win.

I know that when I tried a game using korn's start, I had too many problems with barbarians and was not first in completing the Pyramids because of this. He started on an island near a pole.

I get a work boat much later when I need more health. With a farm or two, growth is as fast as my happiness can handle until I've built the Globe Theater. Work boats are often targets of barb galleys, too, so I usually wait on them until I have Sailing. This means that for deity I need a start with something like Corn or Wheat and another tile or two that can be farmed or just supply 3 food by itself. (Such as ponds and unimproved bananas, etc.)

I have also tried chopping starts, but have found that the delay in learning Bronze Working has delayed me too long in researching Literature. On deity, I feel that along with the Pyramids, the Great Library and an early National Epic are needed for any chance of success.

[Diadem]

So you don't research animal husbandry, bronze working or iron working at all?

What if there are hidden resources? Sounds like you potentionally loose some very good spots by skipping these!

[solo]

I trade for them a bit later, but sometimes I'll research Bronze Working earlier if there are a lot of woods that can be chopped.

I just tried another deity game, but missed out on the Great Library, so then researched Bronze Working to rush chop the National Epic and Shakespeare's Theater.

However, without the Great Library, I was slower to Education, etc. and never got a tech lead except for a few later that I happened to research first.

I had a great city location though. At the end my city was putting out 700 beakers and 60 base hammers. I had Aluminum, Coal and Copper and was able to trade for Iron, so was making SS thrusters every 3 turns.

However, Caeser zoomed ahead of everyone with a power rating twice that of anyone else. The other AI could not keep pace and the Internet did not get me all the SS techs in time to build a spaceship first. I came up 3 parts short when Caeser finished in 1975.

This was a clean game, too, without any replays. With a few minor changes and a little better luck, I think this start can produce a deity win. Except for Caeser, my power rating at the end wasn't that far off from the other AI. During the game the Japanese were eliminated, so I didn't come in last place!