OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and Above (Part Two)

[Terajoule]

Solo,
its a pleasure to answer your questions.
As written above i cherrypick my starts. Not counting barbarians i survived 2/3 games.
Of 4 games earnestly attempted i got destroyed by barbarians once, once by an AI (very early days...)
Isa in the Ghandi game showed up with a whopping 2 archers, or whatever the tech was at the time. I got my good buddy Tokugawa to declare war on her the same turn, and never had to worry about it afterwards. OCC50 was finished completely peacefully. Maybe a defensive treaty with Kyrus helped? Saves for 1150AD and the end are attached. Hopefully those files are helpful in some way after their post-mortem.
Dunno really, but being liked by the majority, and not being the most hated adversary of the remaining one or two civs not permanently "friendly" seems to be the ticket to lasting peace.

[Terajoule]

blub, stupid 500 k size limit

[Beleg Strongbow]

Is it a viable strategy to get one AI to declare war on another to weaken them (I'm not sure if you take a hit for this)? I'm still on Monarch (where I have a few wins) but I usually get to the point where I've ticked off at least one person who declares war and then I get crushed in the AI dogpile.

About that, is Pacifism worth the attitude hits that you will take for different religions? even if I pick the most popular religion (which is hard when it won't spread to my city) I will still anger somebody who will then cause me trouble.

[Skatterbone]

Very impressive diety wins solo and Terajoule....congrats! Its looking like special attention to diplomacy skills (and a little luck) may be the key factor.

@Beleg

Hard to imagine how the AI being at war with itself is not in your favor. Perhaps being drawn in by defensive pacts and thus loosing some commerce/resources. But in OCC there is such a high probability of being attacked regardless of what you do, you might as well reep the benefit of AI vs AI wars when you can (IMHO).

As for Pacifism, its my default civic for the obvious GP benefits....but...I realize it may be unsustainable in some games. And its typically not fear of war, but loss of trading/open borders/commerce/etc that kills the game. I have had games where running Pacifism turns the entire trading screen red....no options from any AI civs. Unless you have everything you need within your borders, that's not very realistic. The good news is, Free Religion is a workable alternative. Some advocate Free Religion in the late game anyway...when GP production slows to a crawl. Each game is a little different...go with what you can get away with...and don't be afraid to change civics if needed. The AI does it all the time .

[fluffyflyingpig]

You still get a -# for "You brought a war ally against us" if you bribe AIs to declare war.

On another note, I hate the UN vote cap for a single city. 3 AIs founded island fishing towns to stymie my back door diplomatic/conquest win on my last prince conquest game. Stupid inland starts. Ended up winning on points after hitting enter for 100 turns or so, bah humbug.

[WestSideBilly]

Originally posted by fluffyflyingpig
You still get a -# for "You brought a war ally against us" if you bribe AIs to declare war.

On another note, I hate the UN vote cap for a single city. 3 AIs founded island fishing towns to stymie my back door diplomatic/conquest win on my last prince conquest game. Stupid inland starts. Ended up winning on points after hitting enter for 100 turns or so, bah humbug.

I tried an OCC conquest on pangea and my last 110 turns were the same thing. I wiped out the last Egyptian city in 1930 or so with my raging hordes of riflemen, only to discover Alex had built two dumpy cities on 2/3 square islands and Mansa did the same thing. No oil and no ocean access prevented me from being able to attack. I won by points but it was a rather hollow victory - Mansa had a pop 2 city with longbowmen defending and alex had two pop 4s with a single rifleman in each.

That's the killer on OCC... resources become so much more significant than on normal games where you can reach out and kill for oil/AL/FE/CU. I had an OCC game where I was researching future tech 2 and had a 60 turn queue to finish parts because I had no coal, no iron, no aluminum, and no friends to trade with.

[WestSideBilly]

It seems that raging barbarians have a pretty significant effect on the AI - much more so than me. Of course, if you lack copper (and thus can't make axemen) you won't last long.

[OzzyKP]

The next challenge is to see which leaders you can win with.

I just beat my first monarch OCC game, and I did it with Ashoka Organized & Spiritual.

Truly a rotten trait combination. I accidentally left the random leader option selected, but I decided to play through with it. It wasn't easy, but I somehow pulled it off.

It was archipeligo, I had a nice city sized island just for me. However half of it was jungle. I had 4 gems, 1 pig and 1 corn for resources. No iron, coal, stone, aluminum, or marble Production was a huge problem early on, but those gems helped out my tech rate.

I was able to get the CS slingshot to work, and that helped my production finally start to catch up.

It was a close game. I launched in 2046

[OzzyKP]

Here is a screen shot.

I forgot to mention that I was also hindered by having 3 spaces in my fat cross taken up by mountains.

Though I benefited from having fish, clam, oil & dye within my borders. Even though I wasn't able to trade them for much since food resources were very scarce in this game, which is what I really wanted.

Full disclosure, I scouted out my island to pick a good city spot and reloaded the 4000 bc save to build there. I still don't know if I founded in the right spot though. I missed out on those two clam which would have helped early on. Especially since the pig was stuck in jungle that I wasn't able to clear till later. But I figured those gems would be good to have, so I tried to get as many of them as possible. I also missed out on not founding on the river, so health was an issue all game, even after the jungle was cleared.

[OzzyKP]

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!

Gave my first real Emporer game a shot as Elizabeth and I got beat to the spaceship by 2 turns!!!!!!!!! AAAHHH!!!

With 4 turns to go I was ahead of Washington by two parts. Then with 3 turns to go I was ahead of Washington by one part. Then the next turn, I lost. GGRRRR.

[solo]

Welcome to Beleg!

OzzKP,

Don't worry you have plenty of company in frustration!

So far my own ratio of losses to wins is overwhelming.

On that map you displayed, I would have to agree that in spite of the mountains and lack of clams, you were able to find the best place to put down your city.

If you had founded on the edge of the island nearer the clams, the AI would have founded cities on the other side and would have cramped your position and would have had a good base for making attacks.

I like starts where my settler turns out to be close to the center of my island, so that my city has a good chance of controlling all (or at least most) of its tiles after it expands.

Terajoule,

I gave your plains start a try and was able to complete Stonehenge and the Oracle before being eliminated by a horde of barb archers. Apparently the AI did not expand as quickly as they had in your own game, leaving me vulnerable.

Afterwards, I tried several different games using plains maps, but kept being eliminated either by barbs or by a nearby AI. Since the AI always get Copper and/or Iron well ahead of me and before I have even finish learning Writing, there isn't much I can do. I have nothing to negotiate with, and just end up being eliminated.

In games where I was lucky enough to progress a bit further, I was still attacked anyways. In one game Alexander came after me, but I was able to bribe two other AI to go to war with him. Even so, he was able to spare enough strong units to ravage all of my improvements and ruin any chances I had of completing the Pyramids first.

The more I play deity games on maps where I share the same landmass with the AI, the more I am convinced that survival in SS games is mostly a matter of luck. It's like being in a minefield where trouble can come from anywhere and any slight mistep can mean instant oblivion. To me it seems more like a game of Russian Roulette than a test of skill.

I am wondering if any other players have managed to last a long time into deity games where they started on the same standard size land mass?

[Terajoule]

sorry to hear about your misfortunes, solo
I promise to create more savefiles in the future, and did already start, as a matter of fact *g*.

The weekend is coming, and I've been thinking about the strategy on a normal sized balanced map, with ordinary (say: 2 food, 3 calender/happiness) resources.
Clearly, the pyramids are out of the question on a regular basis, and so is the CS slingshot. Lets get this out of the system first.
Without pyramids and a low fod surplus GP factories lose a lot of attractivenes. A cottage spam/supper science city appears more promising.
What traits? finacial is a must, in my not so humble opinion
We don't *need* any wonders, and will get the great library anyways. So, no industrious.
aggressive, creative, and organized are silly. That leaves expansive, philosophical, or spiritual as the second choice. Expansive is easily quantified, and dismissed. 2 extra food simply does not cut it. It does translate to one speecialist, philosophical will beat this simply by doubling the GP points from national wonders and such. I would value philosophical much more beneficial than spiritual in a game were "always peace" was guaranteed. But, alas, sicking up is required.
Lets grab spiritual and always meet demands for a change of state religion and government form. The AIs just love it.
That means we're Mansa Musa! Excellent! He won't outtech us this time, thats guaranteed at least

The game plan? Oracle for the slingshot to alphabet. Proceed to civil service, education, rocketry, fiber optics, win....
All we'll need now is a buttload of commerce, and permanent peace.

The beginning: wheels and mining as techs. urghh
Sheep, marble, 2 incense. Not overwhelming, but at least there are 3 floodplains. I dare to kick it off.....

First build: a warrior. research masonry to grab the extra commerce from the marble
3960: popped the only a goody gut with...fishing?! Hmmm, switch to ceramics for cottages
Second build: Worker, third the barracks
3520: First barbarian spotted. retreating both warriors to post one in the city, the other one in forest/hill
fast forward, researched ceramics and masonry, and did a little analysis. With size 4, a mine , the quarry and two floodplains 10 hammers will be produced without starvation. Thats only 8 turns for the oracle. Clearly research slows me down worse at the moment. No more getting sidetracked in the tech race (i realized only now that ceramics was probably a mistake. Priesthood wood have been enought to qualify for writing)
Researching mysticism, meditation, priesthood. No AI converted me yet, which is bad. No temples. Anyways, research for writing will take the same 8 turns as the oracle. Slingshot on its way...
and completed by 2040. Trading with 4 AIS (where's the bloody rest when you need them?!) revealed iron and horses in the fat cross Starting to believe it might be pulled off....

[Crossfire]

I tried my first OCC game last night. They sure go fast! I am playing Noble (I only am just trying to move to Monarch in regular games) so I know it will be a close thing to finish before 2050. It is now the early 1900s and I have a good tech lead. I massively control the oceans with lots of destroyers and a big pile of battleships. Monty tried to attack recently but never got to my island. I went and cleaned his ocean squares out and I will prevent him from launching any more ships. I am building ss engines while no one else has rocketry yet. I just might win. Then I suppose it is off to Prince or Monarch level for another go. I am playing as Elizabeth. My current beakers are about 700 with about 300 hammers so that all looks good. I don't think I will need to build the internet but will probably build the tether. I had a nice start and have all necessary resources except oil (and stone and marble). I do have aluminum though.

Thanks for all the tips and conversation here. This seems like an interesting way to play CIV. Since this is my first ever CIV game (lost in Total War land forever) I am enjoying the many aspects and challenges it has to offer.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Thanks for the welcome,

I tried solo's #41 start without success. I've pulled out a few Monarch wins before and thought that I'd try the great Diety leap but alas, it was too great. I got Pyramids and GL and put togeather a nice GP factory, but I couldn't get to Physics before someone finished Apollo and it was all over by then. I don't see how you could ever get a SS win without being ahead in techs (since the AI can build 5 or 6 parts as quickly as I can finish 1), but I can't even get tech parity without trading, which ticks off the "worst enemies" and gets me slaughtered. I guess its back to Emperor for me...

BTW, I can't imagine playing without Pyramids and a GP city, I usually just restart if I don't see stone around.

[Terajoule]

some of my experiences for dealing with the AI
-sell/gift them the world map occassionally
-only under very special cicumstances (say, 3 civs share the same religion already) adopt a state religion. I generally don't touch religion before liberalism in the occ game. Liberalism allows to back-pedal to a neutral stance with free religion 5 turns after adopting a state religion an AI civ might suggest.

I played Mansa a bit more yesterday evening and during breakfast today. Some saves and a progress report will be posted after work. Its 700ish AD now, all peaceful, but starting to look like a lost race. I start to feel the lack of great people beakers and hammers. First indication that something is not quite right was the AI snatching the liberalism free tech, and failue in establishing a tech lead in the rocketry beeline. Everyone is head to head in the (rapidly being sped through) techrace, which i onsider highly unusual, and, given the low hammer output of one particular civilization, not promising.