OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and Above (Part Two)

[mdbill]

4) Tech Trading.
If there is one person that several others don't want me to trade with, I won't. That's too many negatives. Luckily, I find that my one new tech can easily get me all the lower techs I want plus a little gold even if I skip a couple opportunities. I'm a huge bargain hunter and waste a lot of time trying to get the best deals (I would actually prefer "no tech trading" but that's another discussion). I want to trade my tech before someone else discovers it and trades it to everyone, so, yes, I initiate trades. Also, I want to trade it to them before they demand it as tribute, because, as I said earlier, I'd give it to them if I'm worried about staying on their good side.

I should also point out that I also hold out on certain techs to keep my advantage. In case you were thinking that holding a tech advantage is why you get attacked. For example, I'd never trade Literature until I'm almost done with the Great Library. I hold on to Education for a long time too. And, if they don't have any good techs, I won't bother to trade at all.

I (over)plan my tech trades. If I'm gonna give it to the AI, I might as well give it to lots of them. I know they're not gonna trade techs that cost more than mine, so eventually I'll have to trade someone for some small tech or some gold. I'll go for the biggest tech I can get from the civ that I'm not trying to impress, and save the sweetest deal for the one I'm trying to improve my relationship with.
Example: I have Code of Laws and Tokugawa is my closest neighbor. I'd go to Caeser and try to get Mathmatics + 100 gold. Then I'd probably trade Tokugawa for Sailing and get a +2 on trade relations. These trade relations fade over time, so I don't worry about it too much. If Toku has a lot of cash on hand I'll take some of that now and then.

5) Gifts
I have been known to give a happiness luxury to a civ to work on "thx for the years of resources". I do this only if they have no recource to offer in return.

When it comes down to voting time, I've gifted a lot of gold to get +4 on trade relations. (If anyone cares, I find 1000 gold guarantees a +1, but 700 will sometimes do it, and sometimes get you nothing. Each 800 - 1000 bumps you up 1 more til you hit +4.)

But other than that, I don't use a gifting strategy. (recall from above that I do give gold/tech if demanded.)

As you can see, my Diplomacy is not all that aggressive. I often forget to work on it. I'll realize that i could have opened borders or started resource trading 40 turns ago. Whatever I've been doing seems to be working. I keep hoping it's not just luck.

Receiving gifts:
A couple times now, a civ will pop up with a tech gift for me. "How about Horseback riding" or "I think you could use Currency". Are you guys also getting these gifts?

P.S. In the Balanced map game I've been discussing the last 2 posts, I played China if that matters to anyone. The game I won was Elizabeth.

[Feyd]

I just played my first OCC game ever. It was on a low difficulty and an islands map so it wasn't that difficult, but I was surprised how much I had to bee line for the SS part techs at the end of the game.

Now was I wrong to use the permanent alliance option? I was intrigued by it and wanted to try it in one of my games and I feel that it fit the OCC game particularly well.

I did notice that my tech research nosedived after the switch unless we were both working together on the same tech. Basically, what I did was I kept an eye on the scores and made defensive pacts, favorable deals, religion choices and resource trades with the two frontrunners (Vic and Izzy). When I got the Permanent Alliance option Vic was in the lead and had a +15 friendly going so she accepted. It was nice to finally have back up (even though I hadn't been attacked).

I throughly enjoyed the experience and may get up to warlord or noble some day, but seeing as I struggle on Noble i'm not sure about that ... (see my sig to let you know how I feel about my playing skills)

Peace...

[Feyd]

A few things I forgot... (sorry for the dual post)

I loved my forests! They gave me a +4 health bump and so I only chopped two the entire time netting me a total of four non-forested squares (almost half ocean however). It was very nice and it paid its dividends later when I got lumbermills and railroads.

Also, I played as Saladin for Phi/Spi. I was hoping to get all the religions and control the access, but I actually missed out on three! Buddhism because of the dual access for the first two and confucianism and christianity. Mainly because I went for philosophy counting on my Oracle to net me Confucianism. I think that I got more overall use, however, from Spiritual since I could switch civics easily. The Taoist special shrine was netting me 30 gp/turn by the end, but the quick switching between civics and religions saved me quite a bit as well.

I really liked Philosophical though because I was able to get a massive amount of super specialists. Granted quite a few of them were merchants and I only got ONE scientist, but that's out of 23 GPs! I used an artist and a (late game) engineer for a golden age, two prophets for their specials, and one entertainer for a tech discovery. I was left with an 18 super specialist boost to my city which kept me highly productive!

Anyway, it was a lot of fun and I'll be rereading this forum and doing it again perhaps a little higher on the difficulty scale this time though.

[solo]

Welcome Feyd!

This is the first time I have heard of a permanent alliance in OCC, but now that I think this over, it seems like a fine idea. I think having one with the strongest AI would be a good thing and will start experimening with this idea. Thanks for pointing out an option none of us have considered yet!

mdbill,

Thanks for your very detailed and informative reply to my questions. Differences in my own diplomacy are so far are:

1) I usually refuse tribute, since in the past I have always been attacked later by the backstabber after they get what they want for free! I will reconsider this and will start giving tribute to the AI I want to keep aligned with.

2) Also, I think I need to do more to align with one group and then stick with them and refuse to trade and deal with their enemies. I gather from your post that you actually pursue Open Borders at times and at other times are resistant to it. Am I right in assuming that you want OB with "your" group and oppose the idea with their enemies? Also, I gather that you you do not like OB with a close neighbor, friendly or not. Or am I wrong here?

3) My military buildup and way of trading techs is very similar to your own, except I may have gotten into too much trouble "trading with the enemy".

4) Have you found any meaningful correlations between the types of attitudes they have towards you. I ask because I have been attacked frequently by "pleased" AI, so had concluded that it makes no difference if they are annoyed or furious with me! In fact, in one test game, I tried my hardest to antagonize an aggressive neighbor, who just ignored me and attacked another AI. I have concluded that probably "cautious" is the best, and that extremes should be avoided.

5) I'm guessing that you are not making too many 1000 gold gifts. Do you ever gift smaller amounts of gold, or do you just consider doing this a waste?

Anyways, I must get back to a promising game started yesterday, where I was able to get the Pyramids and Great Library (not easily done at deity!), and will try some of your ideas as the game progresses to see how long I can last without being attacked.

Thanks again for your detailed and lengthy replies.

[mdbill]

solo,

I think you've got my OB strategy nailed down. I don't like OB with a close neighbor early in the game. But you rarely have a early close neighbor with the island map. Mid game I want OB with the biggest scariest group like you said, and not the ones that they'll make me stop trading with.

Not many correlations:
I feel like a pleased leader can attack you early in the game because he wants to expand or you look weak. Or possibly because he wants a war with someone and you're the best choice. Once they've picked a fight with someone else and we've hit mid-game, I feel that my relationship actually helps keep the peace.

I don't avoid pleased/friendly because its an extreme, but that's an interesting thought.

Gifts: Right...I don't bother with small gifts. Although maybe 1 gold per turn would be seen as a deal they would lose by declaring war on you. I did not try this. My thinking is they would not care and attack anyway.

Once I get the U.N. and am planning a Diplo win, I turn off research and start the 1000 gold gifts or tech gifts.

[mdbill]

Hi Feyd,

I was going to say the same thing as solo. Your thoughts on Perm. Alliance would be helpful. You make it sound like research values are doubled because you're working together and all the beakers from both civs go to one effort. Is that how it works?

What are the other features of this alliance? Shared Space ship parts?

This also brings up a topic for discussion:

What Options Are Allowed for a Valid OCC Win?

Diety wins are hard enough without allowing some freedom in game configuration. We seem to allow Leader choice and Map choice, but not much else. Unless it's obvious that the option makes it way too easy (like Always Peace) we should be open to experimentation. Raging Barbs sounds hard, but maybe it hurts the AI more than you. No Barbs sounds easy, but maybe the AI will just build less military and take more early wonders. We can't say for sure if these options make it harder or easier. For example: No tech trades... Is that easier or harder? Most think easier, but No tech trades means you have to research everything yourself and you can't get extra gold from trading them. You also can't improve relations by giving sweet deals.

I think we should update the post containing the rules (after we work out the details here.) and list options that can be explored and still count as a win. I suggest:

Raging Barbarians
No Tech Trading
Permanent Alliances
Aggressive AI (good luck)
Random Personalities
Speed : Epic. Quick. Marathon?
No Barbs (?maybe- kinda obvious this one makes it easier)
Choosing opponents (?maybe)
City flipping/razing (? these probably have no effect)

The things we're not flexible on are:
Ancient era, No cheating. All victories enabled.
You can't use any of the options that don't make the list above.

[solo]

Originally posted by mdbill

... or you look weak.

Ha ha, isn't this always the case!

On deity, I don't think I ever look anything but weak to them!

I continued my game but was attacked while researching Computers by Montezuma. He always attacks me, and I really dislike him a lot now. In future games, if Montezuma's ugly face shows up, I think I'll just quit rather than wait for the inevitable attack.

I modified my strategy to be more in line with your own, but was attacked again by Montezuma, even though I had him up to friendly and was aligned with his buddies. I had 12 good city defenders and another bunch of defending frigates, about as strong as I ever can get in deity games. Montezuma had found others to fight with, too, so it wasn't a lack of targets. I'm just convinced now that he just doesn't like me, or that you were lucky, or that I'm still omitting something critical that you usually do.

It will take a few more games for both of us to see how your diplomatic poilicies work out in the long run, but since I have had other games using my old policies where I havce lasted a lot longer and even one game that was peaceful for me throughout. It's looking more and more like it's just a matter of being lucky enough to escape the random chances that come up of being attacked. The odds may be low, perhaps under 5%, but just one AI decision to attack is usually all it takes.

This is too bad, as this start featured Stone for a quick Pyramids. Copper, Iron, Coal and Uranium also appeared in my boundaries and all I was missing was Aluminum. My first GP was an Engineer showing up just as I discovered Literature, so rather than take a chance, I used him to rush the Great Library.

However, Alexander got off to a very fast start and beat me and everyone else to all techs during the whole game. I expected to lose anyways, since he had finished Apollo, before I even got to Computers. Things may go differently in another game, so I will post this very nice starting position in case someone else wants to make a go of it.

I am beginning to regret my remark made earlier that the higher tech costs may result in routine deity wins! I don't think so!

As for game options and rules, I think it's pretty much up to each player which options he or she chooses and which ones aren't used. I wouldn't say that "no cheating" or anything else is mandatory, but believe that when posting results, players should state under what conditions they played their games.

What "counts" for one person is sure not to count for someone else out there, and who is to say for sure which options are the most favorable until they've all been tested out adequately. For example, while "always peace" may seem to be easiest, it could be that a lack of wars among the AI really speed up their research enough to make this option the hardest of all to beat.

[Diadem]

Somehow I completely forgot how to play OCC games. I tried a game on immortal today, and while I had a superb starting location, and got the wonders I wanted, I got outteched so badly it made my head spin. very embarrashing.

[mdbill]

Diadem, If you didn't play on Islands with no small islands, you will get out-teched most of the time. I've seen spaceships started in the 1200's

solo, great to hear you're not a snob about the options. I'd like to open things up a bit.

[Feyd]

Originally posted by mdbill
Hi Feyd,

I was going to say the same thing as solo. Your thoughts on Perm. Alliance would be helpful. You make it sound like research values are doubled because you're working together and all the beakers from both civs go to one effort. Is that how it works?

What are the other features of this alliance? Shared Space ship parts?

Overall I'd say that it was a good call to go for a permanent alliance in my game. I gained an actual military (I couldn't control it, but it was a deterrent above and beyond a defensive pact. I also gained the ability to leave some wonders behind and still get the benefit (He got my Statue of Liberty effect and I got her Eiffel Tower effect). But the biggest benefit was the increased resource draw. If she had ANY doubles she immediately shared them with me (helped with my late game health issues) and even if she didn't have doubles I was able to take the resource for a bit (such as the coal I took for ten turns to get a couple railroads in place)

On the downside, however, the research became arduous. Tech research times were doubled (I assume). If we were both researching a single tech it was an acceptable time, but as my tech production far outweighed hers it was still down even with both of us on the same tech.

For the game I played it was a good call. I had uranium, incense, and aluminum in my city radius, but I was hurting on health and I received about a six point bump when I joined the alliance. Also, it allowed me to leave my military a little weak because I knew she could handle any major threats (although I did end with two nukes I got while waiting for the insane research times). Regardless also, From what I gathered through post-alliance intelligence, everyone's favorite, Montezuma, was only a few turns from declaring war.

Interestingly enough, when I joined a Permanent Alliance in another recent game I was able to railroad the UN elections because I was with the 2nd largest AI. Of course in that game my research times effectively quadrupled because the AI blew on research.

It's a mixed bag, and you should maybe save before you do it to see if it is a good call for you.

Oh... and anything that says "Team Project" on it (spaceship parts, space elevator, the Internet, etc.) is shared as is (interestingly enough) any wonder that could be shared (Eiffel Tower and the Statue of Liberty in my last game)

Peace...

[Feyd]

Originally posted by mdbill
What Options Are Allowed for a Valid OCC Win?

I think we should update the post containing the rules (after we work out the details here.) and list options that can be explored and still count as a win. I suggest:

Raging Barbarians
No Tech Trading
Permanent Alliances
Aggressive AI (good luck)
Random Personalities
Speed : Epic. Quick. Marathon?
No Barbs (?maybe- kinda obvious this one makes it easier)
Choosing opponents (?maybe)
City flipping/razing (? these probably have no effect)

The things we're not flexible on are:
Ancient era, No cheating. All victories enabled.
You can't use any of the options that don't make the list above.

City Flipping:
I had a city "flip" in my last OCC game. They had founded just NW of my city and when I hit Legendary I basically enveloped them with my culture. They only lasted a few turns before rioting and then when they finally "flipped" the city was simply destroyed. It would be interesting to see this option disabled, however, because if they get an early city outside of your borders you could easily wind up almost completely engulfing it.

No Barbs:
I had no barbs show up in the game I played. I sent my units out to clear the Fog of War on my island, but overall the barbs were a non-starter. Question though... does this eliminate goody huts also? Since you're unlikely to get one that could change things a bit in your favor.

Game Speed:
I played at normal and it just flew by. It would be an interesting Epic game, however, and so I might try that next. I'd imagine that Free Speech will trump Representation earlier since gold will be higher and rushbuying of improvments will be the more likely course of action.

Victory Modes:
Personally, I would like to see some of the victories disabled. Maybe turn off spaceship and try one of the other two (true) victory options available to an OCC player... conquest or diplomatic.

You might need to turn off TIME in these situations, but it would be interesting to see nonetheless. I can just imagine my one city sending it's armies out like a xenophobic swarm to burn the rest of the world to ash.

Permanent Alliance enabled would actually allow you domination victory as well if you wanted to try that.

Finally, is there some way that OCC could be modded to include cultural victories? Perhaps 150,000 culture in your one city as opposed to in three?

[mdbill]

"No Barbarians" means no animals or barbs, but you still get goody huts.

I'm assuming (hoping) Firaxis will add Cultural victory to OCC. Why not? seems like an oversight. 100,000 points would still be very hard especially if the space race is turned on. Rumor is they need to tweak Cathedrals too so they can be built in OCC.

[Blake]

I'm playing a trial conquest game. I disabled time and spaceship victories, although there was no need for these settings:

Small Great Plains map, Noble difficulty.

You'll note I left Domination and Cultural on.

I picked Alexander (Agg/Philo), I think this is a pretty obvious trait combo for conquest OCC.

I started in the forest eastern region and chopped the early wonders that matter (stonehenge, pyramids, oracle, great library and quite a few more). I got philo early for Taoism (immediately built shrine) and Pacifism which I ran for a while, I also picked up Theology first.

I got Saladin to convert to Taoism (took no effort on my part), making him a rather staunch ally.

So the basic strategy:
Use (super)specialists and rep for research, meaning less cottages needed.
Beeline to Steel (using Liberalism to pick up Chemistry).
Kick butt with Cityraider2 Grenades and Cannons.

I did engage in earlier skirmishes to get a 10exp unit.

Once I got to Steel I began the "Xenocide" in earnest, creating roving death squads of 5 cannons, 6+ city raider grenades/infantry and a warrior/scout/explorer medic.

The game speed was normal and once I got Iron Works I was easily producing a unit a turn. I believe a unit a turn would be quite doable on Epic too, and that would actually make it easier since each 1 unit/turn is worth relatively more on epic.

Anyway my Death Squads pruned each civ down, starting with my neighbour Hatty who I left with 2 cities, I then crossed the map and razed Rome, then razed Washington. My religious ally Saladin was getting close to a Domination victory, and closer still with every non-arab city razed, so I razed Mecca and a bunch of other Arab cities. At the end I just declared war on everyone, with over a hundred units out executing "anyone who isn't us", enough for about 5 stacks of doom.

I'm not sure what the limits of conquest would be, on higher difficulty more strategy would obviously be needed, particullary in getting civs to fight each other. Ideally you'd want a couple of surgical-strike death squads parked outside 2 civs borders, incite them to declare war on each other. Then a couple turns into the war, send the death squads in and raze all their wonder cities. They would be still stuck fighting each other when the razins' done. Then rinse and repeat with the next pair of victims.

When a civ has been broken, it would be best to leave them with a couple of cities to stink up some territory and prevent it falling into the hands of a major player. However mad dogs like Monty should just be put down.

I think map sizes up to Standard would be doable, and difficulties up to Monarch. Prehaps smaller maps and higher difficulties, or larger maps and lower difficulties would also work. Obviously land maps and pangeas are going to be easier / less tedious, altough any map should be doable with a coastal capital - just building those ships is a drag on death squad size (altough maybe marines could be used to nice effect, pity that SEALS only come with Organized leaders).

Edit: One thing to note is I had a truly ungodly amount of gold, like over 7000. I was only making like +4 gold a turn at the end becuse my army was so huge (city income of over 100 from Great Prophets), but with all the spoils of war I was just raking it in. Like each city razed is enough to upgrade a unit or even two, units literally paid for themselves. I can't really think of a way to spend the gold either, except maybe Suffrage for a spiritual civ, but once the Genocide starts in earnest there isn't much to buy (since units = 1 turn) and things like Red Cross build in just 3 turns. Maybe on Epic though the rushbuy would be more significant.

[solo]

Nice game Blake!

Do you intend to play more OCC conquest games, trying different maps and/or levels?

mdbill,

I forgot to answer your question about AI tech gifts, and the answer is yes, I have got them. This usually is bad news, since they will build a substantial tech lead before casting a crumb or two to the human player!

My further experiments with AI diplomacy have not been successful, so I was wondering if anyone else has been successful in avoiding AI attacks in deity games?

Have you had another deity game without being attacked, mdbill?

Feyd,

I would also like to see the possibility of OCC cultural victories, and agree that something higher than 50,000 would be best.

Perhaps in a future patch Firaxis will accomodate OCC players in this and in our other requests.


In the meantime, I have tried a deity "always peace" game using a standard sized islands map. This was played with "no cheating" on, but this didn't matter since the game was very easy to win. Even without any wars, the AI do not research faster or try for a SS win any earlier than usual.

Being free to build anything when I wanted too, instead of worrying about defense first, I was able to complete my SS in 1939, 3 parts ahead of Roosevelt.

I was first to Liberalism and Physics and never looked back, even though my only early wonder was the Pyramids.

I played this one as Elizabeth, and very much like using this civ if a start can be found with some Stone nearby. Without Stone, Elizabeth needs extra luck to complete the Pyramids first. With it, she can manage if there are some forests to chop after the Stone is connected.

It was fun, for a change, just exiting dipomacy sessions at whim and totally ignoring AI demands. The only ill effect was that not many of the AI were willing to trade techs during the last half of the game.

I think I will try another "always peace" game on a balanced map, to see how much faster the AI are there. After that, it's back to trying to figure out how to avoid attacks in deity games without that option.

Below is the usual zip. The only "issue" in this one was "always peace", but that guarantee is pretty huge.

[Blake]

The thing with Conquest OCC is the success chance seems to be closely tied to the game settings. At which point does optimizing the map settings become exploitive?

I just played a "totally rigged" game.

Alexander (me) vs Washington on a Duel Balanced map.
Diety, Epic. OCC. No Cheating.

I only had Iron within my city cultural radius (no copper or Horses), and it took a while to build up an army because I was on a very hammer-shy start (only minable resource = gold, so actually reduced hammers). But in spite of that once I had catapults I chopped a bunch of them then went on a razing spree. The game was basically all whack-a-mole. I won in 940AD with a score of 22820.
Incidentely the finances are a little challenging until the razing starts. When my army entered American territory my science allocation hit a nice round zero. But once I started razing cities the income more than paid for anything I needed. Another "minor" issue was war-weariness, which at the end was at 6 or 7. In a larger game tho the Globe Theatre would solve that.

This was my first Diety game incidentely, and my first attempt at conquest OCC on a duel map.

Now the ONLY question of conquest OCC is at what levels of rigging it's possible.

Diety Duel and Noble Small are possible. I would think that with a sweet start and AI's that don't like each other, Diety Tiny should be possible. It would ofcourse also be more difficult without cherry-picked opponents, or even more difficult if you choose less than ideal ones (mansa and monty?).

Also I'm not sure what the best civ is. Alexander is awesome for early conquest because those Phalanxes are awesome. I played badly, if I was thinking I'd have chopped me a Stonehenge to get a great prophet or 3 for some extra hammers. But as it was I didn't really use the Philo trait. Aggressive is an obvious trait choice, Financial (Inca) would be a good complementary trait. Industrial might work too but I think Alexander is nearly ideal.