I keep losing on prince

[Arrian]

10 cities is pretty decent w/o fighting. The most I've ever gotten (standard size map, continents, default # of AIs) without warfare was 18, and that was an odd map. It also temporarily crippled my economy until I sorted it out...

Far more important than the Elevator, IMO, is having aluminium. I've fought wars - cultural and shooting - to get it.

-Arrian

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Crossfire
In my last game that I just wrote up (see a few posts up), I didn't finish the space elevator until maybe 10 turns from winning! I had an empty city so I built it anyway. I would not beeline for it at all. There were several techs that I had not researched when I had the last one for the SS. These included flight and the one that gets jets, as well as modern tech1 and something else below refridgeration (maybe after radio). Mansa Musa did research these and lost because of it. If you aren't threatened with war, be more circumspect about what you build and research.

I would aim for:
- build apollo
- whatever gets you casings - 5 cities building them
- whatever gets you engines - 3 cities building them
- the other parts - one per city arranged according to hammer output

Also, be really careful about what techs you trade and with whom in the end game. In that all trades are in the AIs favor you don't want to be sling-shotting your opponent into the lead. I don't think I traded any techs in the last 80 turns.

Well the beeline for space elevator rather than rocketry is based on the idea that its better to build hammer-increasing buildings ASAP. The elevator has a similar effect, it increases the rate at which you can build SS parts so there should be an advantage to building it either prior to or simultaneously with apollo. In a sharp tech race (which every game seems to be) I think its better to get it first especially since this denys it to another civ. Of course it requires planning ahead so that you have a good-producing equatorial city. In this case, my best producer was in the north and so I built apollo before the elevator (despite starting it first). In fact I had some of the casings finished before the elevator.

I almost never trade with the AI late in the game.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Arrian
10 cities is pretty decent w/o fighting. The most I've ever gotten (standard size map, continents, default # of AIs) without warfare was 18, and that was an odd map. It also temporarily crippled my economy until I sorted it out...

Far more important than the Elevator, IMO, is having aluminium. I've fought wars - cultural and shooting - to get it.

-Arrian

Yeah I average about 10-12 cities without fighting. Usually a 4-5 cluster to start. Then I pick up 2-3 from barbs on the outskirts during ancient/medieval times then fill-build 3 more once the economy can handle it.

[Crossfire]

I guess it would be helpful to analyze how long it takes to get the SS researched and built with and without the elevator. I am just not sure that you can get it built and get the SS built in the time it takes to just build the SS. I will do some figuring and get back to you in a couple days.

[Russian_King]

Originally posted by Crossfire
Pyramids are pretty easy to get without stone if you start right away with an industrious civ and dedicate the city to putting out hammers. I usually start this after my first settler in either of my first two cities depending on which has better hammer output. The Oracle is harder to get and sometimes I miss even with marble. When I get them both I am pretty set though as that gets me representation and civil service. Then I research alphabet (long before other AIs) and I can trade for those techs I skipped while picking another tech beeline to stay ahead.

i would like to avoid that kind of thing tho... isnt there a way to win without spreadsheeting techniques? like generalising some way of strategy instead of manipulating the game?

[Russian_King]

Originally posted by Arrian
10 cities is pretty decent w/o fighting. The most I've ever gotten (standard size map, continents, default # of AIs) without warfare was 18, and that was an odd map. It also temporarily crippled my economy until I sorted it out...

Far more important than the Elevator, IMO, is having aluminium. I've fought wars - cultural and shooting - to get it.

-Arrian

18 cities ??? must have been a full land map!
cos its impossible on standard maps to build more than about 6! the AI gets there b4 u (this is pangaea)
altho i just started a continents map and i had a nice closed off area with lots of land and resources (for once!) gave me 10 cities and still buildin

[SpencerH]

18 cities without a war (except with barbs) usually just requires a continent to yourself.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Russian_King


i would like to avoid that kind of thing tho... isnt there a way to win without spreadsheeting techniques? like generalising some way of strategy instead of manipulating the game?

Yes, but only at lower levels. Whatever the pictures, this game is about numbers. Exploits aside, knowing game mechanics isn't 'manipulating' the game, but playing it.

[Enigma_Nova]

People like to make up words to hide from the ugly reality of the 'numbers game'.
Personally, I think the numbers game is beautiful - but many people disagree.

[Son of David]

Civ is totally unlike all the other games on the market.

You actually need to have your wits about you when playing it! There's probably a minimum IQ threshold for being able to cope with Civ. I'm borderline.

[Enigma_Nova]

I'm not sure about that, Sonofdavid. Experience has taught me that there will be idiots everywhere, and I don't think Civ 4 will be an exception to that.
Sure, Civ takes experience and wit to learn - but once learnt, it's possible to auto-pilot (in theory, at least for noble).
I'm ... just not sure. TBSes have long kept out the hyperactive kiddies, but I wouldn't think I'm smarter just because I play Civ 4.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Russian_King


18 cities ??? must have been a full land map!
cos its impossible on standard maps to build more than about 6! the AI gets there b4 u (this is pangaea)
altho i just started a continents map and i had a nice closed off area with lots of land and resources (for once!) gave me 10 cities and still buildin

It was a standard continents map with the default settings. I just got a rather odd map is all. There will always be outliers. Typically, however, 10-12 cities is about right on a standard map.

In my current game (same settings) I founded 3 cities, captured 2 (early chariot rush), and then founded 9 more for a total of 14. Once I got astronomy, I founded 4 more on islands, for a total of 18. I've since captured four more cities, giving me 22 (17 on-continent, 5 on islands).

-Arrian

[SpencerH]

Very strange!

Noble, standard map, etc.
Random civ gave me USA/Washington.

It wasnt even close even though I did nothing (overtly) different. In fact, I didnt get a religion until Islam revolted over to me (and by then I had the civic for free religion) so I played the early ancient and medival game with only 30-40% research. Despite that, I was still the point/tech/power leader for the whole game and I only missed a couple of the wonders!

I have no idea what the difference is between losing a game and crushing the AI (as I did here again) but if this was a previous civ version I'd confidently move up to monarch or higher. With this version I'll prob lose on prince again.

As with previous civ versions, spys need to be playable earlier (I'm makin a list for my mods).

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Arrian


It was a standard continents map with the default settings. I just got a rather odd map is all. There will always be outliers. Typically, however, 10-12 cities is about right on a standard map.

In my current game (same settings) I founded 3 cities, captured 2 (early chariot rush), and then founded 9 more for a total of 14. Once I got astronomy, I founded 4 more on islands, for a total of 18. I've since captured four more cities, giving me 22 (17 on-continent, 5 on islands).

-Arrian

Hmmm! Is 20 or so cities 'standard' for you then? It's quite a few more than I bother with.

[Crossfire]

On the one hand, I think spies become available just about when I really want them; in time to deny my opponent crucial resources needed to win or to actually sabotage work being done. On the other hand, spies have been in use throughout history and would be useful to deny wonders, etc. earlier in the game. They do add another dimension to the game but maybe their use would get old or get routinely countered if they showed up much earlier than they do now.