I keep losing on prince

[SpencerH]

Not by much, but I keep coming in second. My games usually go something like this.

Points leader till around industrial then fall to second or third.
Research lead (based on who can trade what to whom) until late medieval or so. Almost always build great library and Oxford in capital before AI. Capital is used as research city; I've noticed 2-300 beaker production in capital by industrial (with multiple sci-GL used as super citizen types).

Sometime around industrial virtually every AI gains 3-4 techs ahead of me even those who're out of the running. I have no idea how or why this happens?

I usually end up second. In my last game I was no 2 in points and competing with Russia (no 1 in points and whom I'd had several wars with) for the spaceship. I was slightly behind for most of the final build but caught up and knew I had the final tech which Russia did not have. Out of the blue, the Americans build first (with 8 medium size cities). Hell, they weren't even shown on the victory conditions page.

Any idea what's happening?

PS I'm a builder so I never go for a conquest victory.

[GeoModder]

Tech trading is the answer.

[SpencerH]

I dont see how tech trading explains this. The reason I'm surprised by the AI's early industrial research surge is cos I keep track of the AI's techs. I've noticed comments in other threads where this seems to happen to others. It's as if the AI 'divy's up' the research into seperate lines and then trades to each other (rather than tending to go for the same stuff) which substantially increases AI research speed.

[LordShiva]

Conquest is the answer.

[Kriegsspieler]

I am with SpencerH 100% -- I have had the identical experiences that he reports. All I can conclude from this is that the a.i. is beelining a particular mid-game tech that permits it to start pumping out beakers that I haven't twigged onto yet.

I did get one useful suggestion from another thread that I want to try soon, however, and that is to get your closest friends to go to war against your nearest rivals. Being at war cripples the a.i.'s ability to do research.

[Arrian]

Hmm... could be your tech path. Could be that you've been out-expanded and by the mid-game the AI has finally sorted out its economy and then surges ahead. Could be you're playing civs with traits geared more toward the early game and then those civs with more late-game traits are catching you...

All tough to say w/o more details. I'm doing pretty well on Prince - IF I survive the mid game. I've had a run of early success followed by an AI invasion I can't handle b/c I have no army. Not good. I managed to fight them off in my last game (they = Persia, coming with Horse Archers, Axes & Swords, me = China, using Axes, Spears and the occasional sword), BARELY, and then turn the tide later (Rifles + Cannon vs. their Knights & Longbows). But I often find that it's a very close-run thing, even if I have managed some really good work in the ancient age, like the game where I pulled off the Oracle - Civil Service slingshot and built the Pyramids, Colossus and Great Library and yet had only a slim tech lead and virtually no army, such that I eventually had to throw in the towel when a horde of enemy knights came for me.

The AI is a big-time cottage spammer. This is how they do so well in research. It also generally means they do not have much production (in successful games, I often find myself with nearly half the world's MFG, with 5-6 AIs basically adding up to my empire's production). I suspect, sometimes, that I overdo the production thing and need to focus a little more on commerce.

Anyway, Spencer, it's kinda difficult to help you out w/o knowing more about how you play... not to mention my own limitations - I haven't yet had the guts to step up to Monarch, seeing as I'm still getting smacked around occasionally on Prince.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

A couple of things I make sure I get to first in the mid-game(if possible, clearly):

TECHS:

1) Liberalism (free tech, obviously this is big - I typically choose Representation, as it's usually by far the most expensive tech available). Plus it allows free religion, which can really help your diplomacy and also gives the +10% research boost.

2) Economics (less important to be first, but you do get a Great Merchant out of it, not to mention free market!).

WONDERS:

1) Taj Mahal - Free GA for you, no free GA for AI. Simple.

2) Statue of Liberty. See #1 - grabbing Rep will get you within one tech of Demo, which allows the Statue. Nifty wonder, especially used in conjuction with Representation (and, under the right circumstances, Mercantalism).

My problem isn't the renaissance/industrial/modern... it's the medieval.

Astronomy is also a big one, so you can trade health/happiness resources to overseas civs for the same, or (better yet, if you don't need more health/happiness) their available GPT.

-Arrian

[Kriegsspieler]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm... could be your tech path. Could be that you've been out-expanded and by the mid-game the AI has finally sorted out its economy and then surges ahead. Could be you're playing civs with traits geared more toward the early game and then those civs with more late-game traits are catching you

Arrian, could you please expain this? I had not considered that certain leader traits are better early-game vs. late-game. Most of the timeI play with randomized traits, so I make do with what I've got, but what you said here has intrigued me.

[Arrian]

Well...

It seems to me that traits like Expansionist, Financial, Philosophical and Organized can really start to kick in later, relatively speaking.

Exp - b/c usually the AI isn't going to bump into the health limits all that quickly, but as the game progresses, the extra 2 health per city can really help, no? I find it not very good in the early game, though. 1/2 price harbors too, right? Early game only if you make compass a priority... otherwise it takes a while to get around to it.

Fin... well, it's just solid all-around. But for tiles that are not on rivers, you have to wait until your cottages graduate to hamlets (or is it villages?) so they produce 2 base commerce, for the 3rd free commerce for FIN civs to kick in. 1/2 price banks... well, banking is a mid-game tech, no? And then there is the benifit of Universal Suffrage (rushbuying... dunno if the AI does this a lot) to leverage a financial civ's advantage.

Philo - probably the best example. Those Great People just keep piling up over time, as will their effects. Spencer could be running into a round of mid-game AI Great People births, and the AI could be using them on techs... and Philo civs get 1/2 cost Universities.

Org - the stealth trait. Saves you on civics, halfprice courthouses (and lighthouses?)... seems like something that really kicks in once those courthouses are completed (in addition to the culmulative effect of your civics costing less for the whole game...).

-Arrian

[Kriegsspieler]

Interesting --

After my post I realized that org is the one trait that most obviously has an effect that builds over time with more cities, but I had not thought of the importance of exp or phil in the same context.

[John-SJ]

If you're not beyond a little dirty trickery on the AI...

[SpencerH]

OK

I've been playing mostly Mali and China (with chin)

Opening Gambit

If I have mining then -> bronze working, settler chop followed by beeline for polytheism or monotheism and masonry if their is stone or marble nearby with build of stonehenge or parthenon in capital with 4 cities total.

If I dont have mining then it's the beeline first.

Next group are wheel writing lit monarchy/alphabet

I'm almost always at alphabet before the others and use it to trade for techs I may have bypassed

After that it gets more flexible depending on the game but I tend to head for feudalism - guilds - paper-education.

I avoid calendar optics atronomy

I'm usually still ahead at this point (and build oxford and globe theatre first).

From here on I tend to follow the industrial-type research to boost hammer production and to maintain a modern army (I build way more units now than in previous civs in order to avoid being crushed when Catherine 'comes a callin' (as she, or someone else, inevitably does since I'm usually 3rd or so powerwise)

I never go for liberalism, nationalism, constitution, and democracy so never build em or their wonders.

This is where the AI seems to zoom ahead. Even civs that are '3rd world' will have biology, combustion, plastics, and radio etc before me. So I play catch-up from this point and usually come in a close second.

[Volstag]

So much depends on the state of the game, but I'd wager that, for the AI, their infrastructure and economy is starting to come "online" (so to speak) around the industrial era. I'd further wager that, generally speaking, they have more cities that you do -- which (can) translate into more beakers.

To be the tech leader you have to have greater beaker output. The easiest way to do this, IMO: embroil the AI leaders in war, which slows down their tech pace considerably -or- ramp up your beaker output (obtain additional cities, emphasize science/research buildings/wonders, etc).

-dk

[Arrian]

OK

I've been playing mostly Mali and China (with chin)

Two of my favorites.

Opening Gambit

If I have mining then -> bronze working, settler chop followed by beeline for polytheism or monotheism and masonry if their is stone or marble nearby with build of stonehenge or parthenon in capital with 4 cities total.

If I dont have mining then it's the beeline first.

Next group are wheel writing lit monarchy/alphabet

I'm almost always at alphabet before the others and use it to trade for techs I may have bypassed

After that it gets more flexible depending on the game but I tend to head for feudalism - guilds - paper-education.

I avoid calendar optics atronomy

Wow, totally different than me. I go for the Oracle - Civil Service slingshot, backfill a bit (including alphabet to trade what I can), get metal casting, then make sure I get literature for the GL, and then go for calendar/optics, then for guilds, I think... I often find myself well into the mid-game lacking Monotheism. Sometimes it would take only 1 turn to research and I still won't do it... heh

I never go for liberalism, nationalism, constitution, and democracy so never build em or their wonders

I think this is a major part of your problem. You are probably better off militarily than I, whereas I am weaker but my research is geared toward catapulting me into a commanding tech lead. I totally ignore Divine Right, for instance (totally - I'll be researching future techs and not have it). From a military standpoint, once I get to Rifles/Cannon, I feel safe.

I think both of us could probably benifit from paying a little more attention to stuff we neglect (me: units in the early/mid game, so I don't get stomped on, you: more of a peaceful/economic tech path in the mid-game, since you're not playing to conquer anyway).

-Arrian

[Blake]

So far as traits go.
Organized is a strong trait in the end game, assuming you have a reasonably large empire. It's a strong trait throughout the game for those who like to expand. However if you don't have a large territory, it isn't helping much. (altough it'll always help your research more than creative)

Financial is strong throughout the game, the endgame is no exception. To a certain degree it's strength relies on being leveraged, for example watermills+windmills is much better than farms+mines for a financial civ.

Industrial is strongest in the early game then tapers off. In the early game it helps you get off to a good start with the early wonders, the problem with the later game is that you can just rushbuy wonders, in short it's better to have more cash for buying anything than more hammers for wonders only.
Remember the rule of Industrial: It's only useful if you're actually ahead in tech and can thus bag wonders. If you keep getting beat to wonders it's doing you absolutely no good. Contrast this to Financial or Organized that are guaranteed to do good.

Spiritual is as useful as you make it. Chance are however, that by end game you'll be running your final civics. When Spiritual is likely to be most useful is for warmongering - drafting and training units at higher morale and such, so it's a fine trait for the warmonger throughout the game, but it's minimal for the peacemonger in the end game.

Philo's strengths are mainly in the early game. How philo works is that it basically gets you the great people earlier than others, you don't get all that many more than a non-philo civ who uses National Epic and/or Pacifism effectively. You might get like two extra great people. Gee whiz.
However the cheaper universities does help set you up for the mid-game research surge, grabbing Liberalism and physics and stuff.

Creative, well gee, it's downright weak. Seriously. Creative is for early and cheap expansion whoring / conquest. It's strength in the end game is entirely reliant on you using it in the early game to grab a lot of territory. It has literally no strength at all in the end game, because +2 culture just doesn't matter.

Aggressive. Heheh. If you're aggressive, and the AI is beating you in research, go slap them around. It's not going to help you outresearch them at all, at any point in the game.


In my experience, the civs with strong research in the end game have either Financial or Organized.

One other thing about AI research.
The AI loves making Acadamies, they seem to generate a lot of great scientists (if they miss out on wonders), and turn most of them into acadamies. Therfore if you manage a cleansweep of the wonders you may actually be helping the AI research by having them generate more great scientists and make more acadamies.