I keep losing on prince

[Kriegsspieler]

Originally posted by Crossfire
Pyramids are pretty easy to get without stone if you start right away with an industrious civ and dedicate the city to putting out hammers. I usually start this after my first settler in either of my first two cities depending on which has better hammer output. The Oracle is harder to get and sometimes I miss even with marble. When I get them both I am pretty set though as that gets me representation and civil service. Then I research alphabet (long before other AIs) and I can trade for those techs I skipped while picking another tech beeline to stay ahead.

Okay, that makes it a little easier to grasp!
But you raise a point that I would like to have some feedback on, and that is the desirability of using the Oracle to get Civil Service versus using it for the tech that allows you to build forges far earlier than the opposition (I am typing this at a computer on which I don't have the game installed, so I an't remember the tech's name at the moment!).
What are the comparative advantages of these choices? I have been choosing to go the "forge" route up till now -- why should I prefer Civil Service?

[Crossfire]

Civil service lets you choose the representation civic which give (I think) 2 or 3 happy faces in your 5 largest cities and 3 extra beakers of research per specialist in your entire kingdom. I often stay on this civic the entire game. Being at work I am not positive that I have the numbers correct but I think so.

[Kriegsspieler]

Ahhh, that's a powerful incentive!
I will certainly try it tonight. Research certainly seems to trump industrial output in this game, especially if one plays as I do, mostly as a builder and not a militarist, except where necessary.

[Son of David]

Civil service does NOT let you choose 'representation'. It allows you to have bureaucracy which makes your capital city produce 50% more shields and gold. The Pyramids and the 'Constitution' technology are the only things which let you choose representation.

[Crossfire]

See, I can't remember crapola. I usually get them close to the same time and got them backwards.

[MasterDave]

Whenever I get the Oracle, it is too early to get civil service. I usually wind up going for monarchy or metal casting for forges and great engineers, although once I was lucky enough to get Theology and found Christianity on about 1200 BC. If you wait much longer than that on Prince level, you are not likely to get the Oracle before an AI takes it.

Also, in my feverish attempts to get the Oracle and Pyramids/Great Lighthouse, I will chop down most of the trees around my Capital and second city MAYBE leaving three intact for the health bonus if there are tons of trees available. Without chopping, getting those two wonders is very difficult on Prince or higher, even with industrious civs.

[Enigma_Nova]

Oracle to get Metal Casing?
Sounds like a plan, I'll try it out.

[Crossfire]

Depends on how much of a beeline you can do. Some games you just know you are on the late side because you needed to research some stuff, other games I know I have time for to research code of laws while waiting to build the oracle. That is part of what makes it all so interesting. No 2 games are ever the same.

[Kriegsspieler]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Oracle to get Metal Casing?
Sounds like a plan, I'll try it out.

As you might expect, it's actually quite effective for adding a big production boost early on, before anyone else has it. But it doesn't do a lot to solve the problem of falling behind in tech, except to the extent that you can build tech-enhancing buildings.

[Enigma_Nova]

Or build troops to bully tech out of people without troops.

[SpencerH]

I just finished a game at noble with the same (similar) results i.e. lost to space race by a few turns.

I was the point leader throughout the game, and tech leader until the late industrial era when Saladin, whom I had had to gift with techs until that time, passed me!

I totally dominated the game (but lost somehow). I founded hinduism and judaism. Built oracle, GL, colossus, Oxford, Statue of liberty, Pyramids, Hanging gardens, Eiffel Tower, Hermitage and Space elevator, maybe parthenon as well (I forget). Missed 3 gorge and one other medieval one by 1 turn. I had 3 of the top 5 cities. My end game pop, production, GNP, and other stats except for military (#3) were #1.

IMO (aside from cheats) the only way this happened is that Saladin turned all of his production onto research, stopped building everything else, and traded to the other civs (who wouldnt trade with me despite that Saladin and I were allies).

One point to note, there was very little war. The aggressive civs were too backward to be any real threat.

[Crossfire]

I just about never gift any tech to a civ that is doing well. Just keep your military production up some and they won't bother you despite the threats. Also, it really helps to trade something if they come with demands. I will occassionally gift a resource that I have lots of, but I can almost always get gold/turn for it instead.

Also, start building spies so you can keep track of the top one or two opponents and sabotage them if they are close to winning.

[SpencerH]

Gifting your allies with techs is a strategy that has been around forever. An ally whose tech is too far behind will not be a useful tech trading partner.

My military was more than adequate to deal with any enemies despite the number 3 rating. In the few skirmishes I was using inf against their knights.

Who had time to build the Kremlin? It was kinda like a mile race with Saladin suddenly kicking passed me at the last quarter (late industrial) and then keeping ahead (soemhow) despite my being much faster.

[Crossfire]

Yeah, I gift the lousy players to keep them in the game and to make them happy. I just won't gift the top guys because it seems to come back to haunt me. They end up being one of your top tech trading partners anyway without making it worse with gifts.

My current game on Prince I have just started researching Apollo in the 1700s playing as Louie. Mansa Musa is too close and I am trying to find someome to sick on him. That person will get gifted some techs.

[Son of David]

You can't really afford just to build and coast it out to the very end. You NEED to have several wars to take over territory and cripple the AIs.

Liberal application of war and genocide is thing which enables to win any kind of victory, even diplomatic/spaceship ones.

Otherwise the AI players will pool their resources and outbuild/outtech you. Guaranteed.