Everyone loves a Wonder

[Blake]

Heh, I'm not sure if the Colossus can ever be a bad thing. I believe last game, I was beelining for Astronomy due to Isolation. I would have been working about 30 (maybe more) coastal tiles (okay, that is a lot of water, I had some 1-tile island cities). Even if it was only active for around 60 turns, that's still 1800 extra raw commerce. It's not hard to have the thing pay for itself several times over even beelining to astronomy. I suppose it'd be best leveraged on Tiny Islands maps where you can have trade routes with everyone without astronomy, and when you don't need to go a-conquering over open water.
Maybe it's best to think of as a way to speed up your tech to Astronomy. At least you can take comfort in the new trade routes opened by Astronomy .

[DeepO]

Originally posted by kolpo
I also like the great library but the AI also likes it. The great scientists this wonder gives can really help boost your science when you build academies in your biggest science cities. Thought doing this shall make it harder to acquire other great people.

I like the GLib too, but it does more or less force you to take the next tech as well: Music. After which I'm not so inclined anymore to go for Drama...

The benefit is nice, but having the wonder 'force' me into one direction is something I don't appreciate too much

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake
Heh, I'm not sure if the Colossus can ever be a bad thing. I believe last game, I was beelining for Astronomy due to Isolation. I would have been working about 30 (maybe more) coastal tiles (okay, that is a lot of water, I had some 1-tile island cities). Even if it was only active for around 60 turns, that's still 1800 extra raw commerce. It's not hard to have the thing pay for itself several times over even beelining to astronomy. I suppose it'd be best leveraged on Tiny Islands maps where you can have trade routes with everyone without astronomy, and when you don't need to go a-conquering over open water.
Maybe it's best to think of as a way to speed up your tech to Astronomy. At least you can take comfort in the new trade routes opened by Astronomy .

That's the problem in those games where I beeline for Astro: I also make the calculations beforehand, saying that it will speed my research by so-and-so much... and I never even get close. By the time I get Astro, I am still using a lot of land tiles, so I never got the bonus from the sea. It's a matter of focus, and I know I'm putting it wrongly

DeepO

[Thrak]

Originally posted by DeepO
I like the GLib too, but it does more or less force you to take the next tech as well: Music. After which I'm not so inclined anymore to go for Drama...
The benefit is nice, but having the wonder 'force' me into one direction is something I don't appreciate too much
DeepO

Take it early, and its pretty much a given that the free Great Artist will give you drama as a tech = tree done.

The one time I like getting a great artist (compared to the others).

[Dis]

I can never seem to get the pyramids, no matter how hard I try.

I try to get statue of liberty, and I almost always get colossus (because I build my forges as early as possible). I like the Taj Mahal as well. Though I'm not sure if the golden age makes up for the hammers invested in the project. Depends on how many cities you have I guess. I wouldn't bother building it if you only have 4 cities.

[Dis]

question: when it says calender obsoletes a wonder (like stonehenge). does that mean when the AI gets it, or when you get it? It seemed like I was still getting obelisks in my cities even late into the game. I delayed getting calender as long as I could.

[joncnunn]

Wonder expiration in Civ 4 is exactly like Civ 3. It doesn't expire until the player with the wonder gets the tech that expires it.

Still, Calendar is actually a fairly important tech, allows the Plantation and is required for techs leading to naval units that aren't confined to the coast.

[Azuarc]

Meh, drama's a pretty easy tech by that point. It might cost more than Lit, but it comes cheaply once you have Music, and if you put it off a bit longer, it seems to be a 2- or 3-turn affair. I'd rather research it and THEN use the artist for science, if that's the route to follow...and honestly I'd rather use the artist as an artist than a tech wild card.

There are curiously few wonders in the mid- or late-game I concern myself with. None of them have that Umph that just screams "Build me!" other than the culture quartet if I'm playing that way. Statue of Liberty's probably the nicest one out there for me, in the post-ancient world.

But I could build any or all of them during the BC parts of the game. Stonehenge is nice for being cheap, accessible, and potent for a flourishing young empire. Of course, Oracle and Pyramids get talked to death. I'm with DeepO on the trade routes thing, so the Lighthouse, and even the Colossus if you work for it fairly early, are nice.

Unlike some other people, I dislike the Sistine Chapel for a very different reason -- I'm not very specialist-heavy. I tend to leave my workers out in the field for direct production, and great people be damned. Is this the wrong approach? Maybe, since a GP = a free tech if nothing else, but I find even when I'm going for a culture game, the culture from the Sistine Chapel helps me not at all. I'd rather just build theatres.

[Dis]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Wonder expiration in Civ 4 is exactly like Civ 3. It doesn't expire until the player with the wonder gets the tech that expires it.

Still, Calendar is actually a fairly important tech, allows the Plantation and is required for techs leading to naval units that aren't confined to the coast.

yeah I know. I eventually researched it because my workers were done with everything else except putting plantations on my dyes.

[lastchance]

These are all very rough guesses, and not to be taken as canon, just a nice reference point to sum up as much as possible as effeciently as possible, (for my benefit).

Specialized = Really good in some games, really bad in others. (highest variance wonders)

Angkor Wat - not too impressive, IMHO. +1 extra production for priests only? The +3 priests is nice, though hardly necessary. C.

Broadway, Hollywood, Rock + Roll - Culture + Happiness looks very, very good. B

Chichen Itza - The 25% to city defense just doesn't seem useful compared to extra longbowmen and military units that stop not only city invasions, but raiding and also allow you to counterattack. D

Colossus - Early tech edge gives you a lot of advantages. The early game is all about tech. (if you're not in a war at least) If worked well (with Lighthouse), this could give you a nice early tech boost. B (specialized)

Religious wonders (dai miao, etc.) - If you have a great prophet and a holy city, I think this is what you should do with it. C

Eiffel Tower - Free ____ in every city is almost always a good sign. I have to think it applies here. A.

Great Library - I like it. It's worth building, it's cheap, the extra tech is always important. Still, it's not game changing. C

Great Lighthouse - Massive trade boost if you have cities on the coast (and you should). In a lot of places, you'll need the tech. A

Hagia Sophia - Meh. It's cheap, but the worker +50% improvement rate probably isn't that good. I don't know... I'll put it as a D for now.

Hanging Gardens - Extra pop boost. Every new city you found goes to size 2... Again, would have been more useful earlier, and you have to worry about happiness, but I think it's a very good wonder. B.

Kremlin - Weird. +50% hurry production. I haven't played too many late games that need hurry production badly, or where it could be abusive. But if you have tons of money, go for it. C. (specialized)

Notre Dame - Happiness is a major worry in this game, but +1 happy just isn't that noticeable. C.

Oracle - Free tech early. A.

Parthenon - Build National Epic instead. D

Pentagon - Extra rax benefit? For the warmonger late, this looks good. B (specialized)

Pyraminds - Representation. A.

Sistine Chapel - Yeah, this sucks. F

Space Elevator - If going for the Space Race win, this is begging to be built. B (specialized)

Spiral Minaret - Depends on the number of Temples, Monastaries, and Academies one has built. Either game-changing or worthless. C. (specialized)

Statue of Liberty - Very nice. Extra specialists for the win. B.

Stonehenge - Cheap, and expires quickly, but the extra culture boost is very nice early game for the early landgrab. B. (specialized)

Taj Mahal - Golden Age doesn't seem all that powerful, though it could be built. If you can abuse the production and commerce boost to get a key tech, or overrun an enemy civ, build it. Very specific, though. C. (specialized)

Three Gorges Dam - Seems very good late game. B.

Versailles - If expanding in the far out world, jumping continents, and you already have your forbidden palace built, you need to build this. Otherwise, nah. C. (specialized)

United Nations - Very specialized, only useful if you plan for the Diplo Victory, but needed for that build. C (specialized)

[DeepO]

In general, I agree, lastchance. Nice list

Originally posted by lastchance
Angkor Wat - not too impressive, IMHO. +1 extra production for priests only? D.

It's cheap, though, and certain situations very easy to build. I use it more for the 3 priests you can use by it: build this one in a GP factory, and you can have production, plus plenty of prophets!

Kremlin - Weird. +50% hurry production. I haven't played too many late games that need hurry production badly, or where it could be abusive. D.

It's very situational. It can be very powerful, though, even to the point of becoming unbalancing.

In some games, you are generating so much cash that even 10% of commerce is enough to give you a surplus. Leveraging that, and building even more commerce instead of production can pay of: you still have a couple of high production cities, but you turn the tech slider a bit down and start to rush courthouses and libs everywhere. You need universal suffrage, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to rush wonders too: just 2 or 3 turns of 0% research, and you can buy about everything.

This also means you can specialise even further. All your cities end up with CHs, but only few of them with forges or factories. And those that have production bonusses build only units, or wonders... the commerce is generated by the rushed cities.

Notre Dame - Happiness is a major worry in this game, but +1 happy just isn't that noticeable. C.

Except that it comes at the ideal time. But I agree, not that good.

Versailles - Expensive, and the maintenanace cost isn't tht good. D.

Ho... this is also very situational, but can be the best wonder in game! Terra maps, for instance: built Versailles in the New World, and you can freely expand without any troubles. Otherwise, you're going to need to save your FP for that.

Taj Mahal - Golden Age doesn't seem all that powerful, though it could be built. D.

a GA is very powerful. The best way of going for the Taj Mahal is having one just before it completes: that way, you will get 3 GPs worth out of the wonder, instead of only 2. 2 golden ages right after each other is not just nice, it let's you build enough units to conquer a nation the size as yours.

DeepO

[Dis]

The problem with Versailles is it's so expensive I can only build it in a city close to my capitol anyways. Same with forbidden Palace.

[lastchance]

Palace is 2x cheaper than Versailles, 4x if you don't have marble.

Thanks for the feedback, DeepO, decided to change my list around.

Finally, I don't think the National Wonders need much discussion, as I think all of them are worthwhile and very good.

[DeepO]

Moving your palace is impractical, though. With it comes 8 commerce: moving that away from your capital means that the commerce buildings you have there take a hit. Also, bureacracy gives a bonus for your palace city only: move that to a less ideal city, and you will feel it as well.

I tend to build Versailles in cities I conquer: that's why I said the Terra maps are so ideal for this. There, you can find size 10+ barb cities. Cities you're going to need to deal with if you want to keep any colony viable... why not build Versailles there?

DeepO

[lastchance]

By Palace, I didn't mean Palace (as in Capital), I meant Forbidden Palace, the wonder that does the same thing Versailles does for the fraction of the cost. Your point is well-noted though, Versailles is definitely useful.