Everyone loves a Wonder

[djpsychonaut]

Originally posted by lastchance
United Nations - Very specialized, only useful if you plan for the Diplo Victory, but needed for that build. C (specialized)

I think the UN is a little more versatile than just for the Diplo Victory. I build it so that you can pass those resolutions. Granted, the resolutions do provide benefits for all civs, but if your the dominant power than I feel that the benefits will disproportionately benefit you more!

Also, being able to enforce civics on all civs in the world is one nice way to be able to stiffle an aggressive AI civ. Sick of them using Theocracy, Police State, and Vassalage? Get enough votes for Free Religion, Universal Suffrage, and Free Speech!

I think this wonder allows you to influence even your enemies, but of course, only if your big and have friends that are big too.

[cal_01]

I love the Kremlin, especially in the late game when I'm rolling in gold.

Nothing like buying a wonder for 2000-3000 gold.

[JackRudd]

Am I the only one who likes the Sistine Chapel then? I think it works well in the right combinations. (Pyramids - Great Library - Sistine Chapel can give you some seriously nice specialist bonuses early on.)

[Enigma_Nova]

If you plan to build the Sistine Chapel, build it in one of your CultureBomb cities. It makes your Specialists more useful, but most of us don't bother with culture once you're already working as many tiles as you can and have the resources in your borders. =]

[Dis]

Originally posted by cal_01
I love the Kremlin, especially in the late game when I'm rolling in gold.

Nothing like buying a wonder for 2000-3000 gold.

how can you rush a wonder with gold?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dis


how can you rush a wonder with gold?

make sure you've got uni suffr as civic. Go to the city view, click the rush button... you need enough cash to do so, obviously.

You can't rush projects, maybe that is confusing you.

DeepO

[cal_01]

Originally posted by DeepO

make sure you've got uni suffr as civic. Go to the city view, click the rush button... you need enough cash to do so, obviously.

You can't rush projects, maybe that is confusing you.

DeepO

Also to add on this, Great Engineers can't rush projects either.

Speaking of which, the power of a Great Leader seems to drop with increasing difficulty. Before, I was able to rush the SoL with one Engineer, but it only goes to half production or so on Monarch.

I guess to add more onto this, my list of priority wonders are:

1. Stonehenge (!!!)
2. Pyramids
3. ... Maybe Angkor Wat or Spiral Minaret, but it's not absolutely necessary
4. Statue of Liberty
5. Kremlin

For me, Stonehenge is an absolute must since it effectively cuts down on turns to build culture buildings (ie. Obelisk), especially when I miss a religion early on.

[Azuarc]

It's cheap, though, and certain situations very easy to build. I use it more for the 3 priests you can use by it: build this one in a GP factory, and you can have production, plus plenty of prophets!

Can you explain this to me, O? Any city where I care about producing mass priests, I've probably already got buildings in place to do this. A temple and a cath for one religion usually suffices, and if I care enough about priests specifically, I've probably got multiple religions floating around. Maybe I just don't know how to play a priest-power game.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Azuarc


Can you explain this to me, O?

PS: my nick is just the name Deepo (the bird in my avatar), the capital 'O' at the end is just some reference to another graphic novel... I've noticed before that people tend to read it as deep O, which was not the original intention

Any city where I care about producing mass priests, I've probably already got buildings in place to do this. A temple and a cath for one religion usually suffices, and if I care enough about priests specifically, I've probably got multiple religions floating around. Maybe I just don't know how to play a priest-power game.

One of the major problems with specialists is the ability to predict which one you'll get. Caste System can do that for you: any high-specialist city (so about half the citizens are specialists) can be put to completely scientists, artists, or merchants.

Getting these GPs is a sure thing when planning for it: you decide which type you need, and when starting on a new GP you set all specialists to the same type. If you wish, you can calculate perfectly when the GS, GM or GA arrives, and use it optimally.

Prophets and Engineers can't do that: by building the pyramids and simply waiting, you will get a certain GE, but that only works very early on. Later, you can get 1 engineer from a forge, but that won't be enough to get a GE in time: other cities go for multiple scientists (e.g. the GLib already gives 2), and are much faster.

So, most people will set a mix of specialists in a city, when producing GProphets or GEs. They have e.g. 1 engineer, 2 priests, and 1 scientist. Plus some GPP from wonders. So, they can't really decide which one they'll get, it's a chance game. (In this example, they've got about twice the chance of getting a Prophet over a GE, but it still remains a chance)

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This has another implication: cities will get the benefits from the specialists they are set on. Priests will give some hammers and some gold. Engineers give hammers. Scientists give beakers. Mixed cities will get a bit of everything: some extra science, hammers, and gold.

Singular cities can focus on one type: running scientists ina city which has a lot of research buildings (and an academy) is best: it will get more bonusses from scientists than it can get from merchants. This is most apparant with Copernicus or Wall Street: a merchants + Wall street gives at least 6 gpt instead of 3 (actually, it's more, as a bank also has to be present, and a market is probably there too). Specialisation is efficient: you don't need to build libs in a city with only merchants.

This bonus specialists are given is important: nearly everyone will welcome the hammers both priests and engineers can bring. Specialist cities are high-food cities, they rarely have plenty of production. Wanting an engineer and priests everywhere is normal. Which is why most players will go for mixed cities

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Combine these two things into the best specialist city you can think of: floodplains, preferrably with food resources like wheats on them. These cities, when running in full-specialist mode, have no or very little production. You can't build things that will let you use more specialists, or use the bonusses from specialists better. Your best science city (as there are 5 scientists in there in the Classical era) can't build a lib, it takes 80 turns...

Engineers don't help in such a case: you can only have one, and that's not enough to make a difference. Forges and stuff like that won't help at all: 1 hpt +25% is after rounding still 1 hpt. Priests can help, especially with Angkor Wat. 2 hpt is as good as an engineer. However, priests don't come for free: you need temples first. And lot's of them, to make any significant dent.

This is where building the Angokr Wat comes around. In such a floodplain city, build all the temples you can while running high food. The moment you can, build Angkor in any way possible (poprushing, chopping, working desert hills (about the only production near to floodplains), etc.). From now on, you will have at least 3 priests possible from the wonder (plus some prophet GPPs as well), plus some temple-priests you might have built. fp cities need that: it's not uncommon to run over 10 specialists in them by the end of the game (size 16 after biology, only 6 fp worked, no bonusses present)

Now, under caste system, this city becomes a ingular city again. You want a GS? switch to all scientists in the city, and you will most likely get them (there is a 2 GPP in prophets coming from the wonder, so the chance is not 100% anymore). You need a GA? Go for all artists. But when you don't know, go for an all priests setting, and use the extra hammers to build stuff you will need later: an aquaduct, or a lib, bank, etc. The moment the prophet completes, switch back to all scientists, or all merchants.

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BTW, there is another way of getting production in a fp city: go for scientists exclusively, and add those that you generate to the city. Build libs with that extra hpt, and the city is going to be one of your major research centers, under representation most likely the best one.

DeepO

[Azuarc]

Thanks for that. I guess I still heavily underestimate the importance of great persons and specialists.

[Odin]

Pyramids. QED

Being able to go representation early = sweetness.

[djpsychonaut]

Originally posted by DeepO

Singular cities can focus on one type: running scientists ina city which has a lot of research buildings (and an academy) is best: it will get more bonusses from scientists than it can get from merchants. This is most apparant with Copernicus or Wall Street: a merchants + Wall street gives at least 6 gpt instead of 3 (actually, it's more, as a bank also has to be present, and a market is probably there too). Specialisation is efficient: you don't need to build libs in a city with only merchants.

You make a very good recommendation here on how to guide the GP process. I never really thought of doing this because Specialist and GPs have not been a major focus of my strategy, but I'm seeing that focusing on them more could help me quite a bit.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by djpsychonaut


You make a very good recommendation here on how to guide the GP process. I never really thought of doing this because Specialist and GPs have not been a major focus of my strategy, but I'm seeing that focusing on them more could help me quite a bit.

GPs are definately an important part of the game, but I agree it takes a while until you have the rest of the game figured out, so you can start diverting attention to GPs. They seem underpowered, because most people will focus on either growth, wonders, or military, with maybe a couple focusing on tech. I have not seen any report yet of somebody really focussing on GPs.

That's a shame, as they can really shape the game. GPs can be little turbo boosts, either short term (discover a tech, trade mission), or long term (academy, shrine, settling). I've played games where I only had 5 cities, but used 2 of them as GP factories, and settled most of the GPs generated in 2 cities (capital for scientists, second (shrine) city for GMs and GPrs. Superspecialists are extremely powerful if you use them right: GMs + Wall street, GS + Oxford and every other modifier you can find. It's quite easy to have your empire making money at 100% research: all you need is a good GM factory.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DeepO

I've played games where I only had 5 cities, but used 2 of them as GP factories, and settled most of the GPs generated in 2 cities (capital for scientists, second (shrine) city for GMs and GPrs. Superspecialists are extremely powerful if you use them right: GMs + Wall street, GS + Oxford and every other modifier you can find.

Isn't 5 cities one-too-few for the Oxford & Wall Street, or was it a smaller map? I've just had a 5-city experience where I had to found a sixth (1-hammer city), switch to Univ-Suff and cash-rush Lib, Uni, & Bank to allow the national wonders.

[Blake]

He probably meant founding 5 cities.

I've started on my GP fetish stage. At the start I pratically ignored them and Philo civs, now I'm making GP pumps and stuff. They can be VERY powerful as super-specialists, mainly when you get like 10 in one city.

It takes only about 125 turns for a Great Merchant to pay compared with cashing in, that's not counting the +1 food. Cashing in is okay if leveraged (ie used to upgrade a large army and grab/secure some territory). Making super-specialists is good if leveraged (ie by Oxfords/Wall Street/Ironworks).

With Great Scientists, do the calculation for where they will generate the most beakers. Added to the oxford city, they will only give +18 (or +27 under Rep) bonus beakers. The +50% Acadamy will add more beakers added to any city with a base commerce rate of atleast 36 (52 under Rep). Well, there are the +1 Hammers, but also the +4 Culture from the Acadamy. In any case it'll be rare when making a Great Scientist is the right thing to do, because a city (even a hammer city) can get 40+ raw commerce from trade alone. Acadamies rule. However extra Great Scientists can be very useful in the early game, added to your Acadamy city. But given the choice I'm more inclined to try and generate Great Prophets and Great Merchants, as both provide better total bonuses as super-specialists.
(So, Generate Scientists for Acadamies and the others for super-specialists, Great Artists can suck if you don't need border expansions).