Everyone loves a Wonder

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by djpsychonaut
I don't really like bulding Stonehedge because the obelisks all become obsolete with Calendar, which is pretty early in my opinion. It's still a nice early game boost to culture. It lets you focus on building other things and still expand your borders.

I'm not really a fan of the Statue of Liberty, although I would build it if I had the chance. I think that there's more important Wonders to be building around the point in the game when this becomes available, specifically Broadway or the Eiffel Tower.

Representation is pretty good in an early game when you build the Pyramids... just think low maintenance, and basically all of your cities will receive the happiness bonus. I'm not sure if the science bonus is relevant early on. I don't even know if you can have scientists that early actually...

What's powerful is that it applies to all specialists.

[Arrian]

I like most of the wonders. The ones I *really* like, though:

Oracle
Pyramids
Great Library
Taj Mahal
Statue of Liberty
Three Gorges Dam

I also like the Great Lighthouse, Colossus and Hanging Gardens, but often find those harder to snag. The late-game happiness wonders and the UN are also important, but I kinda expect to get them...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Dis
The problem with Versailles is it's so expensive I can only build it in a city close to my capitol anyways. Same with forbidden Palace.

I used it to great effect just like DeepO said - on a Terra map in the New World. I saved a Great Engineer expressly for that purpose. I quickly built a forge in the city and then started Versailles & used the Engineer... it still took 20 more turns to build, but that's not too bad. And then I was able to colonize/conquer the entire New World. Granted, this was on Noble and all, but still...

In a non-terra map game, I'd say more than 1/2 the time I want the AI to build Versailles. Target acquired, sir, permission to fire?

-Arrian

[Bigrob]

The Three Gorges Dam

The Three Gorges Dam seems very popular here. Yes, it's good on paper, but you can't build it until Plastics, which means your Factories are going to be sitting around a long time without power, and it's very expensive, even if you've got a suitable city to build it in. What am I missing?

[Arrian]

It's a continent-wide effect wonder, which can be quite powerful if you're big and it's got the old Hoover Dam effect, which was big in CivIII. I agree it comes a little late and is very expensive, so it's probably not as good as the old Hoover.

The bigger your civ and the more pressing your health concerns, the more valueable the Dam is.

-Arrian

[Bigrob]

It seems to me that I either have the choice to build the Dam, or build the spaceship. Diverting a high production city to the Dam won't in the end save me much time on the Spaceship race. I just think it becomes available too late to be very useful. I've not done the maths though.

[Arrian]

I haven't yet run into that either/or choice. Perhaps I will as I increase the difficulty level in my games.

-Arrian

[dschur]

On the subject of 3 Gorges....

If you build a Coal Plant for the power boost while you wait for the Dam to complete is there any way to get rid of it? Or do you suffer the health effect forever regardless.

[Azuarc]

Originally posted by Bigrob
It seems to me that I either have the choice to build the Dam, or build the spaceship. Diverting a high production city to the Dam won't in the end save me much time on the Spaceship race. I just think it becomes available too late to be very useful. I've not done the maths though.

Agreed.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Isn't 5 cities one-too-few for the Oxford & Wall Street, or was it a smaller map? I've just had a 5-city experience where I had to found a sixth (1-hammer city), switch to Univ-Suff and cash-rush Lib, Uni, & Bank to allow the national wonders.

Smaller map... but the same applies to 6 cities on standard as well.

Blake, where does you +27 bpt come from?

6 bpt for a scientist, 9 with rep
+ 70% from monasteries
+ 25% from lib
+ 50% from uni
+ 25% from observatory
+ 25% from lab
+ 50% from academy
+ 100% from Oxford
+ 10% from free religion
(total +330%)

gives 25 normal, and 38 bpt in representation.

Of course, you won't get the full +330% modifier, hence your 200% modifier sounds like a good guess for Copernicus. Still, 27 bpt for 1 (!) scientist is huge if you compare that to e.g. 200 bpt research your empire is getting.

DeepO

[Sauron07]

Parthenon gets a D?

It appears as though one wonder which hasn't been discussed much here is the Parthenon. LastChance's comment was "Build National Epic instead. D"

I would disagree with the D rating, and give it something closer to a B. In my opinion, the +50% Great People generation can be significant, particularly considering how early you can get it. When compared to the National Epic, it comes much earlier in the game and the +50% applies to all cities in your empire compared to only affecting a single city ( you can also have BOTH).

It's obvious that this wonder helps any strat relying on GP production, but there are a couple of other scenerios where I think it makes quite a bit of difference.

The +50% GP production helps alot if you are trying to grab more than 1 early religion as it will spped up the generation of those early great prophets (from stonehenge or the Oracle) so that you can build the religious shrines and start raking in the cash.

The Parthenon is also the first wonder available which can produce great artists. This obviously helps someone going for cultural victory as GA's are the fastest way to get your 2nd and 3rd cities to legendary status.

The other strat which benefits from the Parthenon is a military offensive. The parthenon allows you to generate great artists at the time when I otherwise wouldn't have them and can put them to what I think is their best use, liberating capturing cities, at the point in time when military conquest is both the easiest and most beneficial, prior to the middle ages(aka when Gunpowder units arrive).

GA's help an offensive in several ways:
1. They allow you to utilize captured cities immediately to build units that don't have to be transported to the front lines and which can garrison those cities freeing up your more experienced occupying troops

2. Give captured cities a significant cultural defense bonus which helps prevent them from being recaptured or flipping culturally;

3. Allows you to work and utilize resources in the already developed tiles surrounding the city immediately rather than having to wait until borders expand (I commonly acquire 1 or 2 luxury resources this way which goes a long way toward combatting war weariness back home); and

4. Allows your slow units to utilize the roads in the area to move onto the next front in the battlefield. I hate having to plod through enemy territory one tile at a time while trying to assemble a force to take the next city, all while the enemy is building more units, moving closer to feudalism (longbowmen) or gunpowder, and I am suffering from one more turn of war weariness at home.

[Arrian]

I think that those wonders that have cost discounts with resources (e.g. Parthenon with Marble) should have two letter grades: one for when you have the resource in question, and one for when you do not. The Parthenon is certainly worth building if you have marble (although I must say I didn't in my last game, when I did in fact have marble). Without marble, on the other hand, it's so-so, IMO.

The Colossus is pretty much a no-brainer if you have copper and a couple of coastal cities (I built in in 7 turns last night), but w/o bronze and with a mostly inland empire, it's not worth it.

And so on and so forth, you get the point. These things are heavily dependant on the circumstances.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
These things are heavily dependant on the circumstances.

That's probably what I love most about CIV. Every situation gives an entirely different 'grade' to game mechanics, creating possibilities you wouldn't even consider in other circumstances. That's what's adding so much variety to the game.

Plus, in every situation I know off, you are given several choices as well. So far I don't know of a single situation where one strategy would be so overpowering all other strategies are not worth pursuing. I'm still exploring my first few games, though, just enough to see that there is so much (future) depth in this game.

For instance large tiny-island maps: you might think that such situation absolutely require harbors and Collosus/GLight. However, a strat in which you focus on military strength can also work: rush to axes/swords, and go entirely on production in your empire (instead of grabbing the obvious commerce benefit). As you will catch the AI at its weak spot (not enough production on islands, and the AI can't deal with it as it is focusing on commerce), it's sometimes easier. You will get stuff like harbors when you conquer it... another very valid strategy, and quite the opposite of the obvious Colossus/GLight path.

Most wonders are like that. They can be an invaluable part of your master plan (e.g. the Oracle in tech-beelines), but still you will have options to go around them (e.g. no Oracle? Go for a lib+2 scientists and build an academy.). Like this, wonders flavour the game: you can aim for them because you have a particular strategy in mind, or you might grab them when the opportunity arises and you simply use them to best effect once they complete.

There are very few wonders that offer a flat bonus in most situations. The Pyramids is one of them. Because it gives multiple choices, you can adopt its use for what you need it for. These wonders tend to have a built-in expire date: when you discover all the techs, having the Pyramids or not is completely irrelevant. All wonders should be more or less balanced like that... Stronger ones will be situation-specific, flat ones will be weaker and go obsolete at one time or another.

DeepO

[bjsiders]

All the Ancient Wonders are useful. I always try for Pyramids and Oracle and am usually a bit hamstrung if I don't get at least one (Pyramids) and I'm often forced to completely revamp my strategy if I can't beeline to Civil Service via Oracle.

Next up is Parthenon and Great Lighthouse. I usually end up getting the Hanging Gardens and Great Library too, the AI doesn't ever seem to build either very quickly.

Stonehenge - very situational. Sometimes I build it, sometimes not. I usually need whatever spare production I've got to go towards military. I might do Stonehenge if I have a lot of early production an/or the Stone resource available. Sometimes I can build it in under 20 turns. It also depends on my civ traits. If I'm Creative, there's not much need for it. Also depends on resources. If I have a ton of stuff that requires a Plantation to harvest, I'll be getting Calendar early, no point in getting Stonehenge usually.

After that it varies greatly with what kind of cities I have, who is near me, what technologies I need to stay alive, and that sort of thing. I often go for Theocracy + Vassalage and build up an army of double-promoted units to take out the top AI Civ or two. Also depends on the map. I'll head for Astronomy on a Terra map, etc.

The pop culture wonders are all excellent, I also always go for the Eiffel tower (which SHOULD have been the CN Tower, given what its affect is),

[baboon]

For a military style game, this is what I do, in order, and why:

1. Stonehenge. Because I don't want to build obelisks and because it's done within a few turns with a chop, even on Epic. I build it after I made my first settler.

2. Pyramids. Since I'm not founding an early religion, I need happiness. Health will be taken care of by granaries. Takes me 2 chops on Epic to help getting it. Still annoyingly long. I build it after my second settler.

3. Oracle. One chop and either I get it or I just miss it. It gets me to Code of Laws, with my religion and the important courthouses. If I miss it I'm pretty rich, so I raise the research to 100%. I build it right after the Pyramids.

I build all of it in my Capital, and I don't have much forest left there. The Capital usually becomes a GPP farm/research hybrid.

I'd like to build less wonders and more units, but I can't miss these. Stonehenge is very important for landgrabbing, oracle is too cheap and too good to miss. The only thing I would like not to build is Pyramids because it takes a long time and deforests my capital, but I don't think I can do without Representation.