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Originally posted by Zinegata
... And actually, most stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks were myths. German propaganda, however, highlighted the one true incident of it occuring to show how their "modern" army was overruning the underarmed Poles. Western historians tend to repeat this propaganda. Polish historians, on the other hand, note that their cavalry performed quite well during the German invasion, especially since their cavalry also had tank support. (Poland had a few tanks at the start of the war, though their quality was quite good, which were mainly assigned to the cavalry divisions)
... Also, Russian cavalry rarely, if ever, performed cavalry charges "wiping out swathes of the German army". World War II cavalry mainly fought on foot, using horses only as transport. The wide use of artillery made cavalry charges impractical at best and suicidal at worse. In fact, though cavalry would still be in use by 1945 (and many years after), the last cavalry charge ever made happened in 1943, two years before the end of the war. Interestingly, the last charge would be made by Italians!
Finally, the T-34 was hardly a perfect unit. While more powerful than early Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs, it was outmatched by the newer Panzer IV, and totally outclassed by the Panther and the Tiger tanks fielded by the Germans later in the war. The T-34's gun, in fact, is not powerful enough to destroy a Panther in one shot. The Panther's gun, on the other hand, can easily destroy a T-34 in one shot, and it has a longer range to boot.
The fact that the Russians won at Kursk (even though Germany was using many of these new Panthers and Tigers) was a testament to the Red Army's maniacal courage rather than the quality of their equipment. Their courage was such that T-34 drivers at one point were ramming their enemy counterparts!
Really, I have to say that Firaxis needs to make sure their combat system doesn't produce flukey results in the next Civ game, or at the very least they should convert ancient units to a poorly armed modern counterparts when the times leave them behind. Threads like these and the misconceptions they spread wouldn't happen in the first place if they did it -_-;;;
... And actually, most stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks were myths. German propaganda, however, highlighted the one true incident of it occuring to show how their "modern" army was overruning the underarmed Poles. Western historians tend to repeat this propaganda. Polish historians, on the other hand, note that their cavalry performed quite well during the German invasion, especially since their cavalry also had tank support. (Poland had a few tanks at the start of the war, though their quality was quite good, which were mainly assigned to the cavalry divisions)
... Also, Russian cavalry rarely, if ever, performed cavalry charges "wiping out swathes of the German army". World War II cavalry mainly fought on foot, using horses only as transport. The wide use of artillery made cavalry charges impractical at best and suicidal at worse. In fact, though cavalry would still be in use by 1945 (and many years after), the last cavalry charge ever made happened in 1943, two years before the end of the war. Interestingly, the last charge would be made by Italians!
Finally, the T-34 was hardly a perfect unit. While more powerful than early Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs, it was outmatched by the newer Panzer IV, and totally outclassed by the Panther and the Tiger tanks fielded by the Germans later in the war. The T-34's gun, in fact, is not powerful enough to destroy a Panther in one shot. The Panther's gun, on the other hand, can easily destroy a T-34 in one shot, and it has a longer range to boot.
The fact that the Russians won at Kursk (even though Germany was using many of these new Panthers and Tigers) was a testament to the Red Army's maniacal courage rather than the quality of their equipment. Their courage was such that T-34 drivers at one point were ramming their enemy counterparts!
Really, I have to say that Firaxis needs to make sure their combat system doesn't produce flukey results in the next Civ game, or at the very least they should convert ancient units to a poorly armed modern counterparts when the times leave them behind. Threads like these and the misconceptions they spread wouldn't happen in the first place if they did it -_-;;;
russians had 1st cavarly army under belov. it performed reasonably well in moscow counteroffensive, being especially mobile in the snow (unlike german tanks which had many problems at low temperatures) and yes, it cut down a lot of german soldiers. deal with it.
if you bothered to check the link i provided (american intelligence magazine in 1946), they pointed out that cavalry did not charge like it did during napoleonic wars. it was supplemental unit used for particular purposes and it worked reasonably well when used sparringly and cleverly.
t-34 was certainly the best tank of ww2. it won the war not only through numbers (well, french had more tanks than germans, so what), but because it was the best balanced tank in mass production. towards the end of the war, germans managed to pump in some superiorly armored/armed tanks, with the end result of them being less maneuverable and guzzling oil like crazy. tank warfare is a constant battle against enemy and fuel depletion, and a tank out of fuel is a sitting duck. which happened quite a lot, although germans were on defensive.
attrbuting russian successes to 'maniacal courage' is downright insulting for the military genius they have shown on quite a few occassions during ww2. it also feeds into a myth of an invincible german army which got brougth down by a combination of vodka, asiatic hordes, stalin's terror of its own populace and General Winter.
consequently, this is insulting for germans as well, because it stresses that they had better equipment and training and have lost only because they did not have enough bullets to kill the ever-replenishing hordes.(as for ramming - this is what they did when they ran out of ammo in the midst of the battle, similar to ramming planes into opponent. while brave, it is a fairly rational choice at the moment. kursk was not won because of ramming, but rather because of superior intelligence data and careful preparation of fortifications and counterattack).
the point being - it should be possible to stage a surprise,especially when on defence or countering a weakened, though more modern, unit. firaxis would have to fix its system only if this was a repeated occurence, and solver ran a calculation showing that this would happen indeed sparringly. i guess it is fairly easy for those concerned to mod the combat factors so that a slight tech advantage results in wiping out entire civilizations.
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