Things that made you go WTF?

[bucephalus12]

Originally posted by ElConejo


I believe what is meant by "civilize and rule the lessers of earth" is not simply a nordic isolated issue. It comes from the ideas such as the Japanese Yamato movement (in which they believed they should rule all of the pacific) and the very Western ideologies that justified conquering lands and administering to the indigenous because of the idea of 'we are more civilized then them'. This occured all over as a result: in the middle east, asia, africa, and the americas. And as much as I would hate it, this philosophy has been recieved in many of the United States' polices since her inception.

As for 9/11 we (in the US) were indeed warned. There were reports done on Osma's plans for the US, we had the information on alot of these networks yet did nothing until now. And as far as not provoking anyone into doing this, I am sorry but perhaps you should read some things on US policy in the Middle East and read up on the things that have brought the Middle East to where it is today and judge THEN if the US had not properly acquired it's hatred from the area. Wars and polices to the Middle East such as the ones fought today by couragous men and women in the US Military are only going to deepen the hatred from people in the area.

A very good book I suggest for all to read is "The Modern Middle East: A political history since the First World War" by Mehran Kamrava. Its a very good read and can deepen the understanding of the region further from the "Us and Them" sentiment that has taken hold as of late.

EDIT: Here by it on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052...books&v=glance

Oh, I see, you think it was deserved that thousands of innocent people lose their lives because of the hatred America brought upon themselves. I am sorry but I do not buy into that. There are other ways of making your grievances known than commandering airplanes and blowing up innocent civilians. That's like saying that the Oklahoma City bombing was perfectly justifiable because Tim McVae was filled with rightous hatred brought on by the evil policies of his own government.

I know about the failure of US intelligence to recognize and act upon the warning signs. I suppose you could call terrorist threats a warning however, one could also make the arguement that there were similar "warnings" and intelligence failures prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

I know my history and am well aware of the history of the region from ancient times to the present but in interest of keeping my post short I didn't feel it necessary to go into all that. I can see where hatred has grown due to American policies in the region; I am not saying American dealings in the region have been flawless. Mistakes have been made. But again I state there are other ways of making your grievances known than killing innocent people. While American policies in the region may cause hatred, I would also argue the repressive policies of their own goverments also leads to a feeling by the general population of being held down.

Also, bear in mind, America did not force the Middle East countries into dealing with it; these countries welcomed America when it came time to develop and sell their oil resources. They were motivated by the same thing that motivates the U.S. and the rest of the countries of the world; greed and money.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Hobelhouse


I know we've been imperialistic. But, as empires went, it was a small one and we let go of it before the Europeans let go of theirs. Which is why I find it ironic for a European to call us fascist imperialists.

Well I agree that the word fascist was inappropriate.

[Cardozo]

In real life, the Chinese have had Writing for ~5000 years. They still haven't discovered Alphabet.

[ElConejo]

Originally posted by bucephalus12

They were motivated by the same thing that motivates the U.S. and the rest of the countries of the world; greed and money.

Thank God, we are on the same page!

[ElConejo]

Originally posted by bucephalus12


Oh, I see, you think it was deserved that thousands of innocent people lose their lives because of the hatred America brought upon themselves. I am sorry but I do not buy into that. There are other ways of making your grievances known than commandering airplanes and blowing up innocent civilians. That's like saying that the Oklahoma City bombing was perfectly justifiable because Tim McVae was filled with rightous hatred brought on by the evil policies of his own government.

I know about the failure of US intelligence to recognize and act upon the warning signs. I suppose you could call terrorist threats a warning however, one could also make the arguement that there were similar "warnings" and intelligence failures prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

I know my history and am well aware of the history of the region from ancient times to the present but in interest of keeping my post short I didn't feel it necessary to go into all that. I can see where hatred has grown due to American policies in the region; I am not saying American dealings in the region have been flawless. Mistakes have been made. But again I state there are other ways of making your grievances known than killing innocent people. While American policies in the region may cause hatred, I would also argue the repressive policies of their own goverments also leads to a feeling by the general population of being held down.

Also, bear in mind, America did not force the Middle East countries into dealing with it; these countries welcomed America when it came time to develop and sell their oil resources. They were motivated by the same thing that motivates the U.S. and the rest of the countries of the world; greed and money.

You misinterpreted my post obviously, I never said that anyone deserved to die. I never said that this was the best way to get 'theyre grievences known' and I certainly didnt say it was justified in any way. What I was saying was that your accusation that it was completely "without warning and without provocation" is a false premise.

I appreciate that we can have a discussion and not a yell feast, I would just like to say that because whenever I attempt any type of conversation like this thats how it has wound up. Thanks for being civil.

[bucephalus12]

I appreciate your comments ELConejo. I am happy to have a civilized discussion as well. I have already posted off topic enough in this thread so I am only going to say the following and that will be the end of it for me. The discussion can be continued in another thread should anyone desire.

All I was trying to say is the United States seems to be the country everyone loves to hate lately and I for one have had enough of it. There's not another country in the world that gives and gives as much as the United States does to those in dire need around the world. Time and again throughout history she has answered the call of those in need and those who suffer - the hungry, the plagued, the repressed, the war torn.

Our citizens give freely because we are free to choose to do so. Our men in the armed forces fight and die for those around the world who cannot do so for themselves and they do it volountarily; no soldier in the US armed forces today has been conscripted. They do it because they believe in this country and what she stands for.

If the US is such a terrible country why are there so many people from every country in the world trying to live here, to be educated here, to sell their products here, to raise their families here?

The idea of that guy calling America fascist is absolutely rediculous. I don't know of any fascist countries in history with the immigration problem the United States has. Thousands of people try desperately to get into this country every year through any means they can. They take desperate measures normally used by people trying to escape countries horribly oppressed under dictatorial or communist rule. The news is full of reports such as people packed so tightly in the back of a US bound truck that many die because they suffocate; people drown every year taking to sea on makeshift rafts or overloaded boats with their relatives and children in the hopes of reaching American shores.

Maybe I am being a bit patriotic but I guess any citizen proud of his country aught to be.

It is unfortunate that people buy into terrorist anti-American propoganda. I guess they will not understand until they too become targets for the terrorists.

[ElConejo]

I am an American by birth, my grandmother was one of those people you talk about; coming to this country for a better life from an improverished country (Ecuador; see my flag) to live a life here in America. I love this country, and there is no where on earth I would rather be.. however although I love this country, I cannot fully agree with the choices and policies put forth by her government. Thomas Jefferson said "The highest form of patriotism is dissent." Democracy cannot occur if people simply blindly agree with everything their government does. I for one do not agree with some of the policies and will not sit by and allow people to misinterpret them.

And yes, America has helped many countries in her history, however again the sad fact can be held that in many of those instances of help America helped because there was something in it for her. Look at the atrocites that occured in Rwanda, the United States was actually pressuring the UN -not- to do something about the genocide. The policy was to call it a 'possible genocide' so that we would not get involved. America helped Europe post-WWII because Europe owed so much money to the US and Europe was a huge trade for US industries, helping Europe get back on their feet (via the Marshal Plan) was so that US industries would continue to flourish.

I agree that calling America 'facsist' is a bit over exaggerated, but we have indeed been guilty of 'rule over the uncivilized' in some ways. I do not however buy into any Anti-American propoganda, I simply judge America on her past and current actions from the view of not only within but from outside our borders.

My father served in the US Army, he repaired helicopters for Desert Storm, and as I said, my mother's mother came to this country in the hopes of arriving in the land of milk and honey. I am patriotic in my dissent of the status quo. And as I have already said, I love this country and I would give my life for her, but I will not give my life for the interests of the Power Elite.


P.S. Once again, thank you for the civilized discussion. This can be the end if you so wish of it.

[GTPoompt]

Post #58... WTF

for those who don't feel like scrolling

holyy shi-tt u guyz need to try out the tutorial, LOLZZ, sid appears on the left side of the screen, and after a while if u dont move ur mouse or dont hit the "continue" button , sid's head will shrink to very very small. that was some funny ****t!! u guyz need to c it for urself tho, its not that funny until u c it for urself. (Rusty_1 Apolyton Forums)

[ElConejo]

Originally posted by GTPoompt
Post #58... WTF

for those who don't feel like scrolling

holyy shi-tt u guyz need to try out the tutorial, LOLZZ, sid appears on the left side of the screen, and after a while if u dont move ur mouse or dont hit the "continue" button , sid's head will shrink to very very small. that was some funny ****t!! u guyz need to c it for urself tho, its not that funny until u c it for urself. (Rusty_1 Apolyton Forums)

@ Rusty_1 "Awesome use of the language, dude."

[bucephalus12]

Originally posted by bucephalus12

...If the US is such a terrible country why are there so many people from every country in the world trying to live here, to be educated here, to sell their products here, to raise their families here?

On one final note I should add to the above - to enjoy the freedom to express their opinion, satisfaction or dissatisfaction, with the government and its policies without fear of retribution.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by bucephalus12


Seems to me to "civilize and rule the lesser peoples of the earth" was the Nordic (Viking) policy once upon a time.

I, for one, am tired of hearing people bashing America. People seem to forget America was attacked on 9/11 without warning and without provocation. We didn't ask for war nor did we seek it. The world changed that day like it or not. Should America sit back and wait for the next attack or go on the offensive? I think the best defense is a good offense.

It's funny, during World war II, Europe wasn't worried about American "Imperialist" ambitions when it came calling for American aid. America fought against Facism and it's Imperialistic ambitions. After the war was won did America lay claim to those lands which she helped to liberate? No. She did help the citizens in war torn lands such as Germany and Japan get their lives back and develope a representative system of goverment. These countries have grown and prospered to this very day and they are under their own - not America's rule.

This post made me go WTF.

WTF does 9/11 have to do with Mount Rushmore being a Fascist wonder and American imperialism in the 19th century.

[sabrewolf]

for some people everything has to do with that tragic event... i was once horrified to hear from a US american who called 9/11 the american holocaust

[grandviceroy]

the end game screen is insulting.

i played for 20 hours, came in 2nd out of 7....and it was a close second, with a good solid 20-plus point lead on the next (3rd placer) and double the points of the 7th...

and the computer gives me the same rating as a game that lasted 2 minutes in which my settler was eaten by a lion on my second move.

yup, dan quayle.

this is insulting -- and just bad design.

Even when you do not win, the game should acknowledge your accomplishment. It should give you something back, something that says "ok, you did not win, and you can do better next time -- and here is your mark to beat"

There should be some difference between coming in a close second in a long, hard-fought game and getting wiped out in the first minutes of play.

to treat EVERYONE but the first place as a loser...and to be insulting about it...is just bad manners and poor sportsmanship, and bad business.
. I play a lot of multiplayer games (and most of the 13 boardgames i have had published are multiplayer) and i understand that there is only one victor...but to rub it in, and to denigrate every one else, no matter how well they did, just leaves you with a sour taste.

I mean, i put out close to $100 bucks for this (the deluxe version, plus the strat guide, with shipping for both), plus the time to read the rule book and strat guide (could have read a GOOD book in that time), plus the tutorial (4 hours to completion) and the game (20 hours)....to go through all that, and then be 'dan quayled'...if the game was a person, and he treated me like that, i would never want to play with them again...would you?

[sabrewolf]

what difficulty did you play at?
if you were at a low level, it is no surprise.

but don't be insulted. civ was never good at calculating the true performance. resigning in a leading position should not give you a failure. au contraire, when you resign as king, someone else continues your empire...

do not take it personally. next time finish first

[Harovan]

I was given a Quayle rating and a dishonorable entry in the replay screen for just leaving the world builder with the wrong button. How insulting is that?