Vel's Strategy Thread

[Tony]

Vel,

I tried your 3 stage Food focus / Hammer Time / Coins Focus strategy on Monarch/Epic/Terra on the weekend. It worked very well. I've noticed that it works best if you have ways to continue to reap at least some coins even during the early stages when you are not building cottages. Settling on rivers and building an early Holy City compliment this strat well because they allow you to keep focusing of Food/Hammers without falling too far behind in the Tech race.

Tony.

[Velociryx]

Excellent news indeed, and I'm glad it's working for you!

Quite right, too, re: getting *some* coin cooking, even in the early goings...fortunately, that's not terribly hard to come by (as you say, rivers, any city on the coast is bound to generate some coin, variious specials, etc).

This second job I'm working is killing my free time, but I'll see if I can add some more goodies here in coming days...

-=Vel=-

[Dog of Justice]

In a relatively peaceful game it might be possible to get away with food focus/coins focus/kremlin time (hey, 1/2 cost Banks aren't COMPLETELY useless), but yeah, Vel's 3 stages are generally the way to go.

[Velociryx]

Much has been made of the notion of peaceful advancement, especially in light of Aeson's CS Slingshot technique....very effective in SP, not convinced it'd be viable in MP, but that's okay, since most of the strats we're discussing here ARE geared for SP.

Nonetheless, it should be noted that especially on the higher levels, the way of the Warmonger in the Ancient Age is an exceptionally strong start.

Very similar to standard rush tactics of earlier iterations of Civ, with all the new toys we have in our toybox with THIS iteration, you've got lossa choices as far as HOW to execute the rush.

Off hand, I'd break it down into three basic categories:

Uber-Early Rush
Make straight for Archery - no resource requirements, so this can be done under most any circumstance, and archers are cheap to build, though you can expect relatively high attrition rates. Still with a "Pop-N-Chop" Combination (make bronzeworking your second priority for these two reasons), you can quickly field a MASSIVE army of reasonably good attackers. If you've got a near-neighbor, you won't have one for long. Main drawback to this approach is that you won't be able to extort tech right away, but if you make for alphabet after reducing him to one city, you should be able to bully him out of several. If not, hit him again, with better troops.

Classic Rush
Beeline for Ironworking. You'll pass Bronze on the way, and that gives you two chances to nab resources relating directly to spilling the other guy's blood. If you don't have either Iron or Copper, then by the time you get set up for something else, your window of opportunity will have passed you by, but console yourself with the knowledge that you can Pop/Chop your way to a position of greatness without these, and beeline for archery next to provide at least some sort of defense.

Delayed Rush
Either Chariots if you're impatient, or Horse Archers if you're not. The top of the line units in the ancient age, these guys will eat most everything for breakfast, especially if you take care to pillage the other guy's iron/copper on the way in (so he can't make more spears). You'll need some Axemen in support to knock off the spears, but that's generally easy to do (and if not, archers will fill the role, but you'll need more of them).

Of course, this strategy can be enhanced beautifully by the civs that start with an ancient age UU, but that goes without saying.

A strong beginning for the rush game would be to spam out 2-3 cities, use two for barracks/troop production, grab Masonry on your way to Ironworking and start Pyramids in the third (and preferably, most removed from your neighbors). Spend several turns building garrisons (2 in the front, 1 in the rear +1-2 to guard key resources), and then pop rush/chop your way to an 8-12 unit attack force and you can *decimate* anything in your path. Your goal is to fight (using a Civ III term) a series of Oscillating wars with all your neighbors....don't kill ANY of them....just prune and weaken, then make peace. You get stronger, they get weaker. Don't focus too long on any one civ tho, else the OTHER neighbor will grow too powerful to easily knock down a peg.

This means you'll NEED a good road network, cos you'll be switching your forces to different fronts, and you'll want to do that quickly.

Once you've nabbed 1-2 cities from your near neighbors, you'll need to take stock and assess. If you've done it right, you'll be hands-down the largest Civ in your region, and you can bully tech from your now weakened neighbors to make up for your flagging research capability until you can get to CoL and start bringing down the costs of Empire.

This works like a charm on Monarch, and I'm about to try it on Emperor. Since it works handily there, you can bet your last dollar it'll bowl the AI over on the lower levels.

For me, the goal is to be able to build peacefully. I can assure that for myself by pulling the teeth of the AI before they have a chance to develope. This has been borne out by another intriguing thread here in this forum which tracks the development of the AI over the first hundred turns. In that timeframe, with a concerted effort, you can have a MUCH larger military than any one AI, and use it to secure a peaceful position for yourself.

PS: Be ruthless with your pop rushing, but use chop only sparingly (unless just innundated with forests). Pop, you can replace....trees...not so easy.

-=Vel=-

[Mountain Sage]

For me, the goal is to be able to build peacefully.

you mean, after your neighbours are down to 1 pitiful city each?

I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to come with Arrian's Dark Side Final Solution

[Velociryx]

More about early warmongering:

Everything you do in-game, whether war-mongering or not, should serve a purpose. If it does not serve a purpose, then stop doing it. Focus on the things that matter most. Let everything else either take care of itself or fall by the wayside.

So what is the purpose for early warmongering?

Specifically, the purpose is multi-fasceted, and accomplishes the following goals:

1) It serves to simultaneously strengthen your in-game position as it weakens that of your nearest rivals.

2) With the appropriate technology (Alphabet), a well-timed attack can do your research for you, as you will be able to bully technologies out of your rivals, netting you research gains that make every other research approach pale by comparison.

3) It ensures that you are the strongest civ in your neighborhood. The goal is not to KILL the other civs...they may have their uses later on...once they're "tame" (and by that, I mean, once they have been sufficiently pruned so as to be relegated to the position of "junior partner" on your continent....at which time, you can begin mending fences with them and turn them into long term trading partners, or, keep relations sour and keep bullying them for techs as they get something you lack. Either way.

4) It carves out a large expanse of territory for you to expand into at your leisure. As the largest, most powerful civ in the region, you will not only militarily, but also culturally dominate everyone around you (unless you actively try NOT to culturally dominate, but why would you want to?).

Taken together, these four advantages leave you in a strong position indeed, and if either thoughts of being able to build in absolute peace and safety, or thoughts of smashing your enemies to tiny bits gets your blood pumping, then early aggression is just what you've been looking for.

Note that the purpose of early aggression specifically IS NOT to kill off your neighbors. You want them weak and controllable, not dead. Dead, they cannot benefit you, save for the cities you take initially. Weak and subservient, they can benefit you for the whole rest of the game!

Early Religions? Pah! Fancy Oracle Games? Double Pah! A couple fistfuls of troops, an unsuspecting neighbor, and a dash of persistence and daring, and you're on your way to total domination!

So...let's talk specifics. If you want to be aggressive in the very early game, then you've got three choices: Archers, Axemen, or Chariots. Swordsmen and/or Horse Archers will come a bit later, but by then, you should already be well on your way to subduing one of your near neighbors.

Which will you choose? I'll outline approaches for using all three, and you can pick whichever one best suits your playing style. Or, take elements discussed in various places here, mix and match and come up with something that's uniquely "you."

Other people will no doubt chime in and give you their impressions, tweaks, changes, revisions, and alternatives to warring strategies, and that's well and good. That is, in fact, what this thread is all about.

Until those other folks arrive and start extolling the virtues of their particular system of conquest, I'll outline some general principles that will serve you well, either on their own, or mixed with your own ideas.

Understand that I am not, by nature, a warmonger. I do not like battling in Civ, because I consider it to be one of the least strategic and most "un-fun" aspects of the game. At best, I view it as a necessary evil. I say this because the highly abstracted nature of battle in civ (even with the promotion enhancement, which is a nice touch, but not nearly sufficient to put Civ in the ranks of grognard-style wargames) is relatively non-strategic in its nature. Combined arms are important...but their true nature and versatility is nowhere close to exploited, given the current battle system. That, coupled with the lack of zone of control, coupled with the simplified combat mechanic....no. Civ is still not a wargame, and warring IN Civ is not my thing.

I do it, not because I enjoy it, but because I enjoy the long periods of peace that follow.

And, since I don't really LIKE warfare, I tend to try and have done with it as quickly and painlessly as I possibly can, so I can get to the GOOD stuff, which, for me, is building, generating great people, building wonders, spreading religions....that stuff.

What follows, then, are a number of generalized outlines for methods of meeting the aforementioned goals. Feel free to take from them what you will, leaving what you disagree with.

The Mark of a Good Warrior
All of the strategies I'll discuss have a number of things in common, and many of them have nothing whatsoever to do with battle. That is because I feel that a good Warrior must be far more well-rounded than that.

Among the most beloved and memorable warriors in world history would have to be the Scottish Highlanders. Not because they created a world spanning empire, but because, IMO, they were warrior poets, and their spirit permeated the fabric of western society deeply. So deeply that we can still hear the echoes of their battle cries to this day. So profoundly that the stories of their triumphs and failures still give us goosebumps.

That is the mark of a warrior. Guys like Attila (The Hun) were one trick ponies, if you will....good at killing, and no much else, and they are (and were) quickly ushered from the world stage after a momentary blaze of glory.

So if you want to make a lasting impression, be more than just good with a sword. Be more than just an efficient killing machine. Make war with a plan in your heart for the day when peace will reign, and when at peace, be ever vigilant for the stirrings of war against you.

In Civ terms, what's all that goobledegook mean, exactly? Well, it means that no matter what approach you take, one good warrior will have a number of things in common with another (and thus, your various strategies will share similarities). In a nutshell, A Good Warrior:

* Provides for the training and comfort of his men (barracks, unless your plan is to hit so fast and so early that you will overrun, and taking time to heal your valuable soldiers). Even if you opt to train your first troops without the benefits of a Barracks, you should treat every barbarian that ventures into your sphere of influence as an opportunity to train your troops...every savage beast should be met with relish. Attack (or defend) with care, and cunning, and your troops will flourish.

* If efficient and organized (keep track of your production times, make good road networks for ease of reinforcement, pop and/or chop as needed to keep reinforcements flowing.

* Understands that there will be times when an attack (or defense) must be made where victory is not assured. There is honor in a fighting withdrawl or a sacrificial attack. Make use of both as the need arises. Also understand that when you are attacking, you have the initiative, and such situations need not arise if you plan well.

* Knows that luck should never be a factor in the success of his attacks. I'll repeat that, cos it's important...LUCK IS NOT A FACTOR! If you are relying on luck to win, then you're not a good general, and it WILL come back to bite you. Guys, there's no way around it, there's math involved in planning a good attack. I'll make it simple for you by providing some rules of thumb. You want to know how many men to bring to take a city? Do this:

a) Take note of how many men are defending the city you mean to take.
b) Assume one additional defender to the number you presently see, and make him of the best type of defender you presently see.
c) Add +1 to each unit's attack strength. Add an additional +1 if the city is on a hill, or if it has walls.
d) Sum these numbers together, then double them.

That's how much strength you need to bring with you to attack yonder city.

Example: Assume a city is guarded by two archers. Archers are strength 3. Under the paradigm above, treat the city as though it has 3 archers in it, each with +1 to their strength. That gives you 3+1, 3+1, 3+1 = 12. Doubled = 24. If you're using archers, you'll need 24/3 = 8. Bring 8 Archers to the party, and the city is yours.

Planning trumps luck.

* A good warrior must be...MUST BE talented in areas other than fighting. Diplomacy is at least as important as steel. In-game, this expresses itself in terms of writing (open borders), pottery (finance), alphabet (trading...or extortion, as we'll be using it). All of these are pivotal to the strategy of early aggression, and we'll cover each, in time.

* Realizes that some workers should remain near to your core cities and help in their development, while others should travel with the army ("Combat Engineers") to assist them...roading to newly conquered cities, improving lands around newly conquered cities, etc.

* And finally, a good warrior understands that an Empire is only as strong as the Code of Laws under which it operates. This too, should be high on your research wish-list.

But what of the strategies themselves? Well...here are a few for your consideration:

The Boot-Strapping Approach

This approach places safety and common sense above all else. It is careful and methodical. It takes no undue chances. Thus, it is entirely possible to be a warmonger AND a conservative player.

Consider: Worst case scenario (you do not start with Hunting), you're only two techs away from Archery, and a 50% increase in the fighting capabilities of your troops. In fact, even without hunting, you could probably research BOTH techs in about the same timeframe it would take you to build a starting warrior. Even better, Archery is a combat tech that's not resource-dependent. You are not beholden to, or limited by the luck of the land lotto. You, with archers in hand, can take command of the world around you very quickly. Multiple cities are not needed (and in fact, would slow you down in the short run). Workers are not needed (unless your starting techs include something for the worker to do). All you need is a starting warrior (scout, if you start with hunting), and then...Archers. Forget barracks, too! Just build some Archers.

Do this, and what will happen? Well, first and foremost, your city will grow. That's a good thing. And given the generosity of the base level terrain tiles, terraforming enhancements are not (necessairly...immediately) required for you to reap the benefits of that growth. Second, if you discover a near neighbor, you're already well on your way to having a viable ancient era attack force (plan for 6-8 Archers to lead an assault this early, more if the city in question is on a hill). If you find yourself alone, or with distant neighbors, then stop building archers, use these as garrisons for future cities, and shift gears. You've lost nothing. In fact, you've gained a greater sense of security, and your scouting efforts (you *were* scouting with those archers as you trained them, yes?) netted you not only promotions (without the need of a barracks), but also a better understanding of the terrain around you....so now when you expand, you do so in strength.

Of course, if you DO find that you have a near neighbor, then you're already well on the way to dominating him. Remember, the goal is not to kill, but to bleed. Wait until your rival builds a second city. Wait until the first city grows (if it's close enough to keep...if not, then it doesn't matter, and you will raze it). Capture it and make peace, leaving him with one city. He is now weak. You are now strong. Keep it that way by moving on to another neighbor.

No matter what occurs (either beating the stuffing out of someone, or scouting with your growing ranks of archers), you're still researching, and using the boot-strapping approach to conquest, the very NEXT thing you want to cast your eyes toward is Animal Husbandary. This is true EVEN IF you have no animals to domesticate in your immediate vicinity. Mostly, it's true because it is a relatively cheaper tech than Bronze Working, and it's sitting just off of your "research bow" as it were, so you can get to it, quick and clean. It'll let you know where the horses are, and thus, where to direct your expansion efforts next. With this tech (and close horses) in-hand, you're now only a single step from the Chariot...a faster, harder hitting war-making unit that can nicely augment your aging ranks of archers (in fact, when the first War Chariot appears, your remaining Archers increasingly are relegated to supporting roles, as these new units take on more and more of the heavy lifting). The Age of the Archer is a short-lived one, and it gives way to the Age of the Chariot.

Or...it doesn't. Worst case scenario, you now have a new worker action, and you know where the horses are (and by extension, which of your rivals may have them). This too, is compelling information.

This is truly a crossroads for your fledgling civilization, and as mentioned, there are two possible outcomes. Either you have horses in your vicinity, or you don't.

If you have horses in your vicinity, expand toward them, grab "The Wheel," and start cranking out your next generation of troops.

If you don't, then it's time to explore a different branch of the tech tree, and this time, if you mean to keep an aggressive stance, your course is already charted for you.

BronzeWorking.

Two techs are all that separate you, and you may already have one of them. Mining, and BronzeWorking.

This is truly one of the pivotal techs of the Ancient Age, because it unlocks productivity for your Empire in two important ways. First, in the form of the Slavery Civic. This is fully one third of the tech's power, and it is always available to you, from the moment you get the tech. Use it. Pop-Rushing is a viable means of rocketing your production capabilities over those of your near-rivals, and can enable you to quickly and easily put together a fearsome fighting force.

The next one-third of the power of this tech comes in the form of copper. Either in knowing where it is, or in its immediate use to train two of the hallmark units of the ancient era (Axemen/Spearmen). With a source of copper nearby, you can stand toe-to-toe with any or your neighbors, and even in the worst case (your neighbors have it, and you don't), at the very least, you know where it is, and thus, where to strike to deny your neighbors its use.

And finally, the third "one third" of this tech's extreme power lies in your newfound ability to selectively deforest. This, when combined with pop-rushing, can give you enormous production advantages. Using both intelligently can all but secure your place amongst the great powers of the world.

Again, there are only two possible outcomes. Either you will have easy access to copper, or you won't. If you do, then you're primed and ready to continue your aggressive stance, and the same plan you had before applies still, only now, your Archers are relegated even moreso to supporting roles (a perfect use for them at this point would be to travel with your heavy hitters, and use them to garrison cities as you capture them).

If you don't, then it's time to re-assess your situation. You may have started out aggressively, but now you have seen that you lack both horses (for chariots), and copper (for the mainline units of the age). Time to make a strategic retreat and dig in.

Either way, once you reach this point in the game, it's time to settle in for some peacetime stuff. The Wheel (if you didn't already get it for Chariots), Pottery (for cottages to finance your growing realm, and grainaries, to facilitate growth and make pop-rushing all the more powerful), Writing (for open borders, allowing for advanced scouting into soon-to-be-conquered territory, and Libraries for science specialists and a boost to research capabilities). This latter is very important, because Horseback Riding (assuming you have horses), and to a lesser extent, Ironworking, are relatively more expensive techs, and that expense can be blunted greatly by judicious use of science specialists.

Now is also the time (if you've not veered off the path to get it before) to decide whether or not you want to make a play for the Pyramids--a move that will greatly enhance those Librarian Specialists you're beginning to use). If so, then the city in which you plan to make this play should be assigned at least one worker. Chop ruthlessly until you get the wonder. Worst case, if you miss it, you'll net a pocket full of gold to help finance your next round of expansion. If you succeed, your research takes an enormous leap forward. Either way (assuming you can spare a city in pursuit of it), you gain something valuable for the effort.

Next Steps: Depending on the situation you've been able create for yourself, your next move should be either to Alphabet (to trade with your neighbors, and to extort techs from those you have crippled), or IronWorking, if you have none of the earlier resources, and are in dire need of finding something other than Archers to defend your holdings with.

Ordered Resarch Summary:
Hunting*
Archery
Animal Husbandry
(Wheel - if Horses present)
Mining*
BronzeWorking
Wheel (if not gotten before)
Pottery
Writing

Assess. Eight techs.
(* Could be starting techs, depending on your civ)

Recommended early builds: (options)
Warrior (Scout)
(Barracks) - slower!
Archers (if no immediate neighbors found, begin settler after 1-2 archers, founding the second city to take advantage of horses in the vicinity, if any).

Best used by/on: Cautious players who want to experiment with aggressive openers, poor resource starts, tiny maps, where close contact is all but assured.

Main Strengths: The opening play is non-resource dependent, meaning that it can be used anywhere, under any circumstances. The tech progression is logical, ordered, and builds on a previously established framework, strengthening the whole, regardless of previous success or failure.

Main Weakness: Worst case scenario, you jump out the gate with screaming hordes of archers, only to find out (fairly quickly) that you lack either of the other two mainline ancient age resources (copper/horses). In which case, you might make enemies you cannot really afford to have in the long term (which makes Iron an even more pivotal tech and resource for you!)

More to come....that one took longer to write than I anticipated!

Next up....
The Slave Master's Approach
The Imperial Approach

-=Vel=-

[Dactyl]

Vel,

I think you underestimate the riskiness of the early war-mongering approach. I tried it out on Monarch level, Normal speed. I went after the French with 8 archers. There were 2 archers in their city. However, just after I declared war and crossed the border, the French moved a third archer into the city, apparently from a square I couldn't see. I attacked anyway, but lost all 8 archers without so much as destroying a single French archer. Even if I'd had the 11 archers that your paradigm recommends, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that I would win and, even if I did, I'd have ended up holding the city with a couple of weakened archers. If the French mounted an effective counterattack, I'd be toast. In the meantime, it would take me another 20 turns or so to mount an effective military force, during which time I would not be able to build anything except military units in my cities.

[Velociryx]

Hmm...that's an interesting report, Dactyl. I've been using the very paradigm I mentioned and haven't lost a battle. Haven't even come close to losing a battle, actually. Still, if you're reporting that kind of catostrophic loss on account of three piddling archers, then clearly it warrants a closer look. Post a save game, I'd love to have a go at it.

And I think that if it is taking you some 20-odd turns to mount a secondary force, then you're not chopping/pop rushing gleefully enough...

-=Vel=-

[lastchance]

For early military rushing, I believe http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615 shines a lot of light on the situation.
Doing a bit of calculation, the Archer inside a City has about a 80% chance of winning any battle. Also, 8 vs. 3 is a lot worse than 8 vs. 2, and you need that much overkill if you plan on rushing with Archers (after doing the math, I think Archery rush is perhaps the weakest rush in the game, considering how fast AI gets Archery of their own).

[Velociryx]

It depends. On a normal game, given the pace of research, if you adopt the research pattern I mentioned, unless your neighbor is right next door (Egypt in this past Game of the Month, here on Apolyton, for example), you'll likely have Chariots before you even FIND anybody.

On tiny maps, given the close proximity and tighter build times, the Archer rush can catch the AI's (especially the peaceniks) totally unprepared.

Again, on Epic, given the strange impacts it has on the game (and if you play lots of epic, you know what I mean...I LOVE it!), the Archer rush is not only viable longer, it is, IMO, more dangerous (again, with the pre-requisite being proximity to one's foes).

In practice, using the outline above, you'll automatically wind up with a "combined arms" stack consisting of Archers, Chariots, and Axemen, assuming even a mediocre amount of luck in the land lotto.

-=Vel=-

[Dactyl]

Vel,

Unfortunately I didn't keep that game and, since I prefer Epic games, I've gone back to them. I'm trying to develop an aggressive opening strategy there that I'm comfortable with. I will post any interesting results that I have. I'm looking forward to your posts on the other war-mongering strategies.

[lastchance]

Definitely something to chew on there, Vel. Archery could be strong just to diversify your troops (and you need for HA's).

Still, as an offensive force, I believe Chariots/Axemen are the best, though Archery allows you to throw in HA...

In the early game, I have to think Bronze Working is absolutely excellent.

[BigWilly1974]

I'm no master strategist, but I tried the archer rush last night and it didn't go so well for me - granted it was a first attempt.

That said, in my previous game, as soon as I was able to produce Axemen, the Russians attacked me. I then used pop rush and chopping to create a relatively large number of axemen in a short period of time, and was able to take 2 Russian defended cities with ease.

So while I don't think I'll use the archer rush, I do think the Axeman pop rush/chop rush is very viable, and preferable to putting those turns into creating settlers.

[BigWilly1974]

I should qualify what I said somewhat.

With my failed archer rush, I did manage to take the Greek capital, but it took longer than I expected and I felt very vulnerable as I knew I was falling a fair bit behind in tech and number of cities. So from a style of play perspective, I personally prefer the axeman rush because at least by then I have a 3-4 city base established on which to build.

[BigWilly1974]

Vel, and others...

Do epic games simply have more turns? I had thought it took longer to build stuff, and that was the only real difference.

But if that's the case, how come I have read about people playing Epic games and finishing earlier - that is in-game years, like space race in the 1890s for example?

Also, approximately how much longer (in real hours played) would an epic game take on a standard sized map?

I'll be honest. I've never really considered playing on Epic. On Normal, games take 8-10 hours usually for me, which is more than enough for me.