Vel's Strategy Thread

[Krill]

Tiny map, Pangea, Anchient start, low sea level, solid shoreline...Care to test Locust versus farseer in an MP environment?

[vee4473]

This strat is said to be powerful. But, is it really? I mean, 4 quick cities early is great, but if you have to handicap research or forfeit improvements and units, while larger cities grow powerful around you, is it really that valuable?

Have any of these "test" games involving this strat been played out to the end in order to truly see the effects of such a start?

Or was this tried, and since it is possible to do, it is just being assumed that it is a powerful strategy?

Sorry if it has been and I missed the post.

[khumak]

I'm starting to think that the worker/chop/settler strategy is probably preferable if your starting city is not in an ideal location but for a starting city in an extremly good starting position I'm not convinced, especially if the terran outside of your starting city's radii is horrible.

My last game had a very odd start. My starting city was in an unbelievable spot. On the coast, surrounded by grasslands and plains with a river touching every single tile. 2 of the grassland tiles were also hills. Both horses and cows inside city radii and 2 clams on the coast. 6-8 forest tiles as well. My initial reaction was "holy crap what a city!". About the only way to make it better would be to reduce the number of water tiles to only include the clams and maybe add a flood plain or 2.

Unfortunately I quickly find out that I wound up in a paradise surrounded by jungle. Almost every single tile outside of my city radii was jungle and I don't mean just for a little ways. The entire friggin continent was covered in jungle. Sure I could build another couple of cities but they'd just sit there doing nearly nothing for a LONG time.

IMO I was better off doing what I decided to do which is build up my only city until I'm getting close to ironworking so I can chop down the damned jungle. THEN start building cities. I also had both stone and marble within 2 border expansions of my main city.

[Shr3dZ]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
I think that may be what needs to be taken into account here; if you hack everything down at the start, you may get a strong empire to begin with, but if so - you'd better win early, because as soon as lumbermills and railroads appear, your production is going to flag tremendously compared to a player who has saved his forests and is now pulling 3 production per tile per turn from 10 tiles.

I think its much to early to say this as we still dont know how long it takes for a forest to spread - maybe by the time lumbermills come along all yer forests are back!

[ktbutts]

So far, I rarely use lumber mills. Most of my cities have 3-4 hills w/mines and the rest is either farm or cottage. I have yet to experience a problem. In the middle game with forges I produce quickly. Once the late game rolls around, I've got factories/power/hammer producing cottages. If that isn't enough I pump up the Engineer specialists.

In short, other than for the health I don't see trees as that useful.

[Jcg316]

The use isn't about destroying all the forests, its about using around 1-6 3,4 in most cases. Using them to speed the start not try to do that for a long period. It doesn't matter what the start is.

Building a worker initially is better for improvements, tech, and cities than not. You can cut down a few forests to have two workers and whatever else as faster or quicker. Chops are effective to build military units, they do not limit your defense. A chop strategy designed entirely about building cities and workers is obviously one sided and quite weak to certain other things.

Adding a chop or chops cuts turns off the building of any units or buildings to where at the loss of some forests outside the cities tiles or rounded down forests inside you can gain a significant turn advantage. If you want to attack building your units with chops for production (also allowing growth from a three food no hammer tile, or resource your worker can improve after four turns) you can.

It has nothing to do with being a builder. For military starting with a worker will yield you more military units in a shorter period of time. After the worker four turns later you can fire off two soldiers in two turns. Again two turns after that. That means half of your turns are producing wariors, not building, completed or already having the hammers for before you even click to build it.

You can quickly build units that are much better than other civs if you have copper, revealed already from the tech. You have a worker to connect it with. After a few turns the worker is out he can improve a resource from a 1st level tech you picked after bronze working or cows shortly after if you started with agriculture. If you got a resource for a starting tech thats not even needed.

With the Romans on a balanced map you can have a Praetorian out and you can have it out when someone who doesn't chop is finished building an archer if they went for defense. If they went for a worker and settler first two units then its even uglier. Can chop a barracks while iron working researchs or build warriors at 2 every 4 turns. On a plains hill with a 1food 2hammer tile it would be 3 every 4 turns.

The best gains can come from military. Hammers are fewer and 7.5 a turn from one worker is far more of an effect than 7.5 food and hammer towards a settler. Not that its bad by any means, but it is hardly just a builder strategy.

You don't have to have them chop crucial forests if you have to do 25 forests its hardly bad.

7.5 compared to 2 for a resource, or 3 sometimes, is far too much of a gain. It does not reduce your science, economy, unless you do some kind of insane forest chopping. It is about maximizing the ty. What you do with it is completely beside the point. Its capable, especially as hammers compared to early hammer production, of doing whatever you need it for. As long as you have the forests it 7.5 a turn at worst probably 6.25 a turn.

Like anything else you have to pay attention to the starting location, but there are few times you won't have ample forests on normal temperate type maps.

[Jcg316]

The difference in yield early is more than any other method. Chop hammers for military production while you can grow with a three food tile is huge.

If you could only chop city tiles it would be tougher, if iron working yielded the ability it would be tougher but it isn't. It is high yield for anything, without negatively affecting your city. You don't have the resources for ever but you can make their 1995 your 1980. 5 to 15 turns can be giant, and that's what chopping gives you in the end. The building out strategy that uses constant chops is by no means what it is capable of.

edit: singleplayer its pointless because the AI isn't capable of effective use of it and its kind of bhreaks the feel of the game, for me anyways, so I haven't even used it except to test a little.

[khumak]

On the subject of mid-late game production I haven't seen many people talking about how fast you can crank stuff out by focusing on founding as many religions as possible and building the shrines so you can pay cash to rush everything. If you build Pyramids you have access to this VERY early in the game.

I'm playing a game right now where I founded ALL of the religions and have shrines for all of them. I'm raking in over $300 per turn with research still set at 100%. I don't rush anything in my bigger cities but for my small cities that are newly founded or newly captured it's pretty nice to be able to crank out a new building every other turn. I always build for at least 1 turn before rushing because the cost seems to go down considerably even if the production added was negligable.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Aeson
Getting X cities in Y turns doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Damn right.

While this thread has thus far been very informative, in a limited way, I think the forest is getting lost for the trees (pun intended ).

The only analysis even *approaching* the format we'd like to see was Sir Ralph's, and that still doesn;t sufficiently address more complex factors such as resource availability, neighboring civs, etc.

OK ok, so early chops are clearly worthwhile. And early Workers and Settlers are a good thing too. That don;t mean the early game is broke, by a long shot.

Next?

[Krill]

I just went and chopped 4 forests in an MP game. That still won me the game, without having to spam cities all over the place...

Moderate chopping for military units to stop someone else expanding, and then expanding normally yourself, is a better tactic in MP. It means you won't get rushed, which will happen if you go settler, or worker, first...and you can defend your own expansions more easily than the "locust" can...

[Theseus]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4113962&t=9141#post4113962

[vee4473]

Originally posted by Theseus


Damn right.

While this thread has thus far been very informative, in a limited way, I think the forest is getting lost for the trees (pun intended ).

The only analysis even *approaching* the format we'd like to see was Sir Ralph's, and that still doesn;t sufficiently address more complex factors such as resource availability, neighboring civs, etc.

OK ok, so early chops are clearly worthwhile. And early Workers and Settlers are a good thing too. That don;t mean the early game is broke, by a long shot.

Next?

My thoughts exactly.

Chopping is just one strategy. Not the most powerful one.

Just like any strategy, it has it weak and strong points. It's for you to decide if it fits into your plan and the risks you want to take.

This game has so many possible layers, that I think it is very wrong to say that a strategy that gives you 4 early cities is one that is all powerful and trumps all else.

That thinking is rooted in the theory that many small, growth constrained cities are better than 2 larger productive ones.

And my experience has been that large cities in civ 4 are much more powerful than they were in any other version of the game.

And since it hasn't been tested out to end game, that is a foolish theory to subscribe to.

Besides, for it to work, a civ has to have abundant forest near it anyway. And if they do, then why not take advantage of it?

Criticism of that would be like saying mining hills is a fool proof starting strat (but only if the civ is surrounded by hills).
You wont have forest all the time, so this strategy becomes more of a "lucky opportunity" rather than a hard, cold, game strangling strat as it has been presented.


This notion that there has to be some sort of concrete path to combatting the "chop" or else the chop rules, is bad.

This game has way too many variables.

[vee4473]

besides, you chopping all your trees to make cities, means you have nothing left (while I saved my trees) to push that wonder that will give ME the edge to build a GP to spread my religion and reap the gold to maintain more cities and units or to build the GA that will culture bomb your 4 early cities into oblivion...

many choices there are.

[Jcg316]

The locust strategy or whatever you want to call it isn't the same as chopping forests, it relies on it as a cruch, but is just early expansion.

A small amount of forests that are nearby and in tiles outside the city tiles occurs very, very often. Chopping isn't about expanding or anything else, it is the the highest total yield and hammer yield, without limiting food at all. Up to four chops over most of the early game is very significant, regardless of what you use it for. A balanced method with selective, intelligent chopping is going to out perform that same balanced method without chopping as it maintains higher total yield, significantly as there is nothing that even comes close to chops.

As the benefit is hammers it is great for low cost military units which is all of the early ones. Since hammers tend to be fewer early the costs are small, the static bonus of 30 hammers is thus huge for early military because of this.

[vee4473]

early military is different from early city expansion.

you proved my point by saying that you can use this chopping thing for multiple purposes.


and a small amount of forests nearby is indeed common, but large amounts that would significantly boost large levels of production isn't, not in my game experience. With random maps being as they are, who knows maybe one of us has been lucky or unlucky.

Here's my point though:

Yes, the yield is large, but wherever you choose to put it, means you are NOT putting it somewhere else.

And that means that whatever you are neglecting can be the thing that does you in.