Vel's Strategy Thread

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I've been extolling the virtues of health too (first post!).

The thing I'm seeing here tho...the trend is that early chopping to get those initial cities out (3-4) is so overwhelming an advantage that all the other branches of the tech tree wither by comparison.

Even if that's all the chopping you ever did, I've not seen an alternate strat crop up here that can touch it.

Settler first will get you a second city as fast as worker first, but if you want to keep expanding fast after that, then worker/chop is THE way to do so, and since getting those initial cities founded fast is so important to long term growth, I have my doubts that another ancient-era starting strat will wind up being able to compare, and if that's the case, then that's a pity, because it essentially straight-jackets you along one path in the ancient era.

We'll see tho.

-=Vel=-

I agree. You have some long term disadvantages to cope with, but due to your faster initial growth you are probably able to cope with them.

The problems as I see it are:

You probably dont have an early religion. This limits your ability to create happiness improvement. However, you can get a later religion, and your opponents religions will spread to you in time. Very early, you dont have a happiness problem. Also, faster expansion means more resoures providing happiness, which solves the problem.

You have slightly reduced health due to chopping. Again, you fight this by expanding faster to more health improving resources.


It also can only be done in the ideal form (worker then settler with immediate chopping) if you start with mining. Others will have the worker unable to immediately chop. however, if you had something else useful for the worker to do due to a different statting tech, for a few turns, you could be fine.

[Fried-Psitalon]

:: points up at his Oracle strategy::

The Farseer starts slower than the Locust, but you can bet his overall production is MUCH, MUCH higher by turn 100; his forges have been in operation for quite some time, while the Locust is probably just starting to see benefits from them... and lesser benefits, since he has less production to harness.

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by ktbutts
I think the locust strat (nice name by the way) will only be good in SP.

I kindof think so too, orat least it must change some for MP.

Leaving yourself wihtout much early military until close to 2000BC seems very very dangerous in MP.

i was mostly focusing on this for SP.

[Velociryx]

That's a good point, Fried...but you yourself said that you gravitate toward bronze first...gotta be a reason, yes?

-=Vel=-

[Fried-Psitalon]

I just started using the Farseer, actually - I don't go straight for Bronze anymore.

[Fried-Psitalon]

And yes, the "Settler Gambit" in MP is quite a risky proposition.

[Fried-Psitalon]

And to complete my post spam - by the by, does the SP community ever consider the merits of other-era starts? The AI is actually pretty handy at those.

[Velociryx]

Mmm...much to ponder then...

As to the later start...not I...I want the whole enchalada....on Epic, usually...

I don't wanna miss nothin!

-=Vel=-

[Fried-Psitalon]

Hmm, not sure if Farseer becomes more potent on Epic or not. I'd think so, since tech prices go up so much. How long to research Metal Casting sans Oracle?

[ducki]

As to the later start...not I...I want the whole enchalada....on Epic, usually...

I don't wanna miss nothin!

I'll second that emotion.
I want to build it all, from learning not to get stomped by those evil cattle to figuring out that if you ride on top of a log, you'll float on top of the water instead of dying. Maybe I roleplay it a bit too much, but I think a lot of folks must. Otherwise, why all the RPG additions to C4?

Anyway, I'm with Vel, I want to start at the beginning. It just seems right.

[Jcg316]

Chop rushing is what it is, that isn't an issue now.

Now the point is refining the method to make it functional effectively in a broader sense. We've seen how it can do as an economic method apart from rest of the game. It needs designed to handle those facets.

If you just start with a worker, build an improvement, and then chop a 3 distance forest you've gained 6 turns on the settler production and 6 turns in the game at the cost of 4 of worker production. Certainly an advantage right there. If you were going to start the same way without the chop you would be at a serious disadvantage. 6 turns is definately worth more than 4 of worker improvement. If you research archery you can make a second chopto go off as the settler finishes and have an archer and hammer spillover to your next unit/building.

Besides being able to speed up the early game with only a few chops, even just one is good, you can build faster.

If you can start with worker, settler without chops you can start with worker, worker, settler and chops. It doesn't take any more time. Plus you can have two warriors in two turns afterwards.

The difference is we need to go back to all the starts and add chops where we can.

For example, on a worker first start:
We build a worker.
We can either improve a tile if we have the right tech, or chop if we got bronze working. Obviously the best scenario is getting a resource for your starting tech. Then you can initially resource bronze working. If not there are now to models for the situation with chop, and one without.

From here you can build another worker and then a settler in the time it would take you to improve a tile and build a settler, at the loss of four forests. If you have 4 or 6 forests close and 3 or more at 3 tile distance that isn't a loss, baring special circumstances. On the chance you have the right resource you could improve and chop in any order.

We could chop one forest, build a settler for 4 turns. At the end of the 4 turns put out two 1 turn warriors over which you also get those turns production carried over.

If teching to a specific tech we could build a barracks and warriors, or anything else available through expendable forests while using a 2 food 2/3 coin ocean tile. (Oracle for Metal Casting or Iron Working, best as India starting with Mysticism, Mining)

If Bronze Working reveals copper you could mine it and or chop a forest waiting for Pottery if you don't start with it. Then connect it and chop an axeman.

and more, more, more.

Eventually in the tree of initial empire models after going through these terain and starting technology dependent situations. Map, map type situations. Value of a second city and hut results and the like you'd get to where you could figure out what the second unit would be and build.

With time we'll learn this second nature, but for now we can either look at all the simple paths or do a hell of a lot of grunt work. Knowing when to mix military and growth units and when to go for one or the other is a different beast then just looking at the basic turns to this unit after this building tree.

At its simplest just look at chops as much as picking resources to improve and anything else.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
And to complete my post spam - by the by, does the SP community ever consider the merits of other-era starts? The AI is actually pretty handy at those.

I would have to disagree for high difficulty AI, and to even some extent with low difficulty AI. Later era starts favor the player by quite a bit in most cases. Future, Modern, maybe even Industrial with Space Race though... high difficulty AI's may be able to win every time, but I haven't tested that.

For instance, beating a Deity AI on a Classical start is usually rather easy in comparison to Deity Ancient starts. It's more like Monarch or Emperor than Deity. Not only do the AI not change their approach to the game from one era to another, they lose quite a bit of their advantage with starting units. On Classical, they get 3 Settlers and 3 Workers to the player's 2 and 1. That's a rather big reduction % wise from 2+1v1+0 on an Ancient start. Plus the AI waits for escorts for their spare Settlers, which means the player actually can sometimes found their 3rd city before the AI does. Plus there are no huts, which on very high levels tend to go mostly to the AI (who starts with more exploring units). But mostly it's that the AI doesn't approach later era starts with a specific later era strategy.

[Aeson]

Don't ignore "big city" in favor of "quicker cities". Each has it's benefits and drawbacks. CIV is not like past Civilization games where expansion was exponential. Playing catch-up in number of cities is viable, and can have greater long term potential. Locusts are fast expansion, but will be very slow early research, miss most the early religions, miss more wonders, and will be extremely poor at choking a neighbor or fending off an early rush.

Getting X cities in Y turns doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Theseus]

YAY!!!! I'm finally up-to-speed and ready for this thread!!

[Now I just need the friggin' game! ]

[Krill]

lol at Theseus.

Vel, I am around for a while...want an MP game?