Class-Action Lawsuit Anyone?

[Darg]

Originally posted by JoeGator
Yeah good luck with that one dumbass.

I have to say that that's the best reply I saw to this topic.. laughed my ass off.

Seriously though. I've had a number of problems with the game myself but with some work I now have it running stable (for now).

I actually found the major problem was my Audigy 2 soundcard when I set it to 4 speaker setup. At one point in the game that I repeated 5 or 6 times from autosave a barbarian axeman attacked a warrior of mine in a small city. Both units disappeared and the game froze. One Ctrl-Shift-Esc and an End Program later and my comp was fine again. When I set the speakers to Dolby Digital they still disappeared but the game kept working fine.

If anyones having similiar bugs then id recommend switching to DD or 2 speaker setup.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Jack Noir

Thanks for the list of “graphic cards that work”. I am off to spend a couple of hundred dollars to run this dog.

They KNEW that this was going to happen.

Jack Noir

Um, the list of "graphic cards that work" is a list of cards that support T&L. Something that the minimum specs list as being required to run the game.

So how is it a bad thing that someone on a fan site who doesn't even work for the company that wrote the game publishes a list of hardware that meets the minimum requirements listed for said game? (snoopy correct me if I'm wrong about you not being a Firaxis employee) And how does publishing such a list of compatible* hardware several days after the game is released show that anyone "KNEW that this was gonig to happen"?

*compatibility based on the hardware meeting the minimum specs as published with the game

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=Jack Noir]Civ-4 would be considered a "product", in corporate law, in my location. The "seller" (or group of conspirators) has certain obligations to the purchaser. Disregard of these obligations is a U.S. federal offence when the product is purchased through the mail (internet).

I really like playing Civ-3. However, if I am not able to fix these problems with Civ-4 soon and get beyond this I will be more than ready to find a lawyer who will work on a contingency basis. The group of companies who distribute Civ-4 have a lot of money that a sharp lawyer would want to tap into.[/q]

Would you happen to be educated in the law.. in the slightest? When you have a number of lawyers saying it'll never fly (including myself), why continue on this idiotic line of argument. Fine, try to get a lawyer, and get laughed out of their office.

After all, there have been plenty of games far buggier (Ultima IX and Fallout 2 come to mind). Do you think you are the only one who came up with the idea "I'm going to sue them!"? Problem is... it has never worked.

[DrFurious]

Originally posted by DKDiveDude
Logs part 2:

PythonDbg.log
Initializing Python
1. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\email
2. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\encodings
3. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx
4. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\build
5. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib
6. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\py
7. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\tools
8. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\colourchooser
9. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\editor
10. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\floatcanvas
11. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\masked
12. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\mixins
13. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\lib\ogl
14. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\py\tests
15. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM\wx\tools\XRCed
16. Using Python sys path: ASSETS\PYTHON\SYSTEM
sys.path =

['ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\email', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\encodings', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\build', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\colourchooser', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\editor', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\floatcanvas', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\masked', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\mixins', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\ogl', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py\\tests', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools\\XRCed', 'ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM']


sys.modules =

{'zipimport': , 'signal': , '__builtin__': , 'sys': , '__main__': , 'exceptions': , 'CvPythonExtensions': }


sys.builtin_module_names =

('CvPythonExtensions', '__builtin__', '__main__', '_bisect', '_codecs', '_codecs_cn', '_codecs_hk', '_codecs_iso2022', '_codecs_jp', '_codecs_kr', '_codecs_tw', '_csv', '_heapq', '_hotshot', '_locale', '_multibytecodec', '_random', '_sre', '_subprocess', '_symtable', '_weakref', '_winreg', 'array', 'audioop', 'binascii', 'cPickle', 'cStringIO', 'cmath', 'collections', 'datetime', 'errno', 'exceptions', 'gc', 'imageop', 'imp', 'itertools', 'marshal', 'math', 'md5', 'mmap', 'msvcrt', 'nt', 'operator', 'parser', 'regex', 'rgbimg', 'sha', 'signal', 'strop', 'struct', 'sys', 'thread', 'time', 'xxsubtype', 'zipimport')

1. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\screens\
2. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\
3. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\entrypoints\
4. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\pywb\
5. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\pyhelper\
6. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\pitboss\
7. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\pyunit\
8. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs: python\_debugtools\
9. Using Civ moduleSearchDirs:
EntryPoint module:cvgameinterface
EntryPoint module:cvmapscriptinterface
EntryPoint module:cvunitcontrolinterface
EntryPoint module:cvdiplomacyinterface
EntryPoint module:cvoptionsscreencallbackinterface
EntryPoint module:cvscreensinterface
EntryPoint module:cvwbinterface
EntryPoint module:cvdebuginterface
EntryPoint module:cvpopupinterface
EntryPoint module:cvscreenutilsinterface
EntryPoint modulebmain
EntryPoint module:cvappinterface
EntryPoint module:cveventinterface
EntryPoint module:cvtranslator
EntryPoint module:islands
EntryPoint module:great_plains
EntryPoint module:continents
EntryPoint module:archipelago
EntryPoint module:wheel
EntryPoint module:inland_sea
EntryPoint module:mirror
EntryPoint moduleasis
EntryPoint moduleangaea
EntryPoint module:hub
EntryPoint module:balanced
EntryPoint module:maze
EntryPoint module:ice_age
EntryPoint module:custom_continents
EntryPoint module:ring
EntryPoint module:team_battleground
EntryPoint module:highlands
EntryPoint module:terra
EntryPoint module:lakes
EntryPoint module:tilted_axis
load_module CvEventInterface

load_module CvUtil

load_module traceback

load_module CvEventManager

load_module CvScreensInterface

load_module CvMainInterface

load_module ScreenInput

load_module CvScreenEnums

load_module time

load_module CvDomesticAdvisor

load_module PyHelpers

load_module CvTechChooser

load_module CvForeignAdvisor

load_module math

load_module CvMilitaryAdvisor

load_module CvFinanceAdvisor

load_module CvReligionScreen

load_module CvCivicsScreen

load_module string

load_module CvVictoryScreen

load_module CvOptionsScreen

load_module CvReplayScreen

load_module CvHallOfFameScreen

load_module CvDanQuayle

load_module CvGameUtils

load_module CvUnVictoryScreen

load_module CvDawnOfMan

load_module CvTechSplashScreen

load_module CvTopCivs

load_module random

load_module CvInfoScreen

load_module CvIntroMovieScreen

load_module CvVictoryMovieScreen

load_module CvWonderMovieScreen

load_module CvEraMovieScreen

load_module CvPediaMain

load_module CvPediaScreen

load_module CvScreen

load_module CvPediaTech

load_module CvPediaUnit

load_module CvPediaBuilding

load_module CvPediaPromotion

load_module CvPediaUnitChart

load_module CvPediaBonus

load_module CvPediaTerrain

load_module CvPediaFeature

load_module CvPediaImprovement

load_module CvPediaCivic

load_module CvPediaCivilization

load_module CvPediaLeader

load_module CvPediaSpecialist

load_module CvPediaHistory

load_module CvPediaProject

load_module CvPediaReligion

load_module CvWorldBuilderScreen

load_module Popup

load_module CvWorldBuilderDiplomacyScreen

load_module CvDebugTools

load_module CvDebugInfoScreen

load_module CvMapGeneratorUtil

load_module CvGFCScreen

load_module CvPopupInterface

load_module CvScreenUtilsInterface

load_module CvScreenUtils

load_module CvWBPopups

load_module CvCameraControls

load_module CvAdvisorUtils

PY:OnInit
load_module CvAppInterface

load_module CvTranslator

8 SCREEN TURNED ON

PLAY

Assets/Art/Movies/Intros/2KG_NTSC.bik

MS 1

LOGO

MS 2

PLAY

Assets/Art/Movies/Intros/intro.bik

load_module CvMapScriptInterface

load_module Continents

load_module Archipelago

load_module Balanced

load_module Custom_Continents

load_module Great_Plains

load_module Highlands

load_module Hub

load_module Ice_Age

load_module Inland_Sea

load_module Islands

load_module Lakes

load_module Maze

load_module Mirror

load_module Oasis

load_module Pangaea

load_module Ring

load_module Team_Battleground

load_module Terra

load_module Tilted_Axis

load_module Wheel

PY:Player 0's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 1's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 2's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 3's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 4's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 5's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 6's alive status set to: 1
PY:Player 18's alive status set to: 1
load_module encodings

load_module encodings.latin_1

8500 - gold

8501 - research

8502 - culture

8483 - food

8484 - production

8485 - commerce

8525 - judaism

8526 - judaism

8527 - christianity

8528 - christianity

8529 - islam

8530 - islam

8531 - hinduism

8532 - hinduism

8533 - buddhism

8534 - buddhism

8535 - confucianism

8536 - confucianism

8537 - taoism

8538 - taoism

3 SCREEN TURNED ON

99 SCREEN TURNED ON

load_module CvWBInterface

load_module CvWBDesc

load_module array

PY:saveDesc:C:\Documents and Settings\DKDiveDude\My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Saves\WorldBuilder\WBQuickSave, curDir:C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4
WBSave done

PY:OnPreSave
load_module pickle

PY:saveDesc:C:\Documents and Settings\DKDiveDude\My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Saves\WorldBuilder\WBAutoSave, curDir:C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4
WBSave done

load_module CvGameInterface

PY:Player 18's alive status set to: 0

thanks for this

[Jack Noir]

Your August sir archermoo,

My system, an hour ago, had almost exactly, spec for spec what the RECOMENDED system required. What the excellent "list of graphic cards that work" posted else where in the forum, told me was that the Radeon 7500, while claiming T & L support, actually was marginal or non-compliant in some units. Like the one I had bolted in my box.

I would consider this to not be the game makers fault, except that T & L support has not been an issue for me in the past and apparently the same is true for a lot of other users.

So I went out and bought a Geforce 6600 for $180. Now I can see the game. I have suffered eccononically and my mental anguish would be unbearable if I could not post my thoughts to your august attention.

Jack Noir

[BgT]

I'm part of developing team for a PC game and we do it the same way. When game goes gold it takes quite some time to reach the customers. That's why we make the first patch available the day or few days after the world release. And then another patch. And another. What can you do...

[seebs]

Civ-4 would be considered a "product", in corporate law, in my location. The "seller" (or group of conspirators) has certain obligations to the purchaser. Disregard of these obligations is a U.S. federal offence when the product is purchased through the mail (internet).

And what obligation do you think they have but didn't meet? Have you read the license terms?

Do they have an obligation to make Civ run on specific hardware other than that they claim to support?

I really like playing Civ-3. However, if I am not able to fix these problems with Civ-4 soon and get beyond this I will be more than ready to find a lawyer who will work on a contingency basis. The group of companies who distribute Civ-4 have a lot of money that a sharp lawyer would want to tap into.

A sharp lawyer would also know that, since you've got no real damages, you have no real case, and you have no way to tap into that money. If you hypothetically managed to get a lawyer, I'd guess your case wouldn't survive the first motion from opposing counsel.

There's just no basis for any kind of legal action here. The best you could plausibly get would be for a court to tell them to patch the software, but they're doing that anyway.

They KNEW that this was going to happen.

Which might be why the box warns us of the game's hardware requirements.

[BleckLord]

You know those times when you hear about stupid civil litigation? This comes to mind:

burglar gets injured breaking and entering and sues the homeowner for damages

And you think to yourself, "the world would be a better place and have far less lawyers if people would pull their heads out of their buts and stop suing left, right, and center."

The fact that a lawsuit comes up as a remedy for buggy software is beyond me.

A. it'll take too long
B. it'll be far too expensive
C. you won't win
D. if you do win, you won't get anything
E. if you do win, you'll be flamed forever on every Civ fan site known to man
F. if you do win, I'll be helping them flame you:

Civ 4 is a good game. It's fun. It's too bad we have to wait for a patch to enjoy it.

[wilebill2]

Since such a lawsuit would be precedent setting for all software publishers, you can be sure that the attorneys for all the publishers would take great interest in the case, and probably help out. "Outnumbered" is probably an understatement.

[WhiteBandit]

Originally posted by BleckLord


Was there a demo of Civ 4? I must have missed where the demo was released. So if the dealler doesn't offer a test drive and then sells you a lemon, you're just supposed to sit back and take it. I don't think so.

Or you know... you can do research before you buy something. That's the risk you take for being an early adopter of ANY product. It sucks, but that's the way it works.

You could have read the forums and saw that people with similar hardware configurations are having problems and realized you shouldn't buy the game yet.

Or take the game back to the store and demand your money back since it doesn't work.

A class action lawsuit does nothing.

(ex. iPod lawsuit resulted in a $50 gift certificate for Apple products to people who signed up while the lawyers "representing" the people pocketed MILLIONS of dollars of settlement money. Yeah, that's really pro-consumer).

[archermoo]

Originally posted by BleckLord
You know those times when you hear about stupid civil litigation? This comes to mind:

burglar gets injured breaking and entering and sues the homeowner for damages

And you think to yourself, "the world would be a better place and have far less lawyers if people would pull their heads out of their buts and stop suing left, right, and center."

The fact that a lawsuit comes up as a remedy for buggy software is beyond me.

A. it'll take too long
B. it'll be far too expensive
C. you won't win
D. if you do win, you won't get anything
E. if you do win, you'll be flamed forever on every Civ fan site known to man
F. if you do win, I'll be helping them flame you:

Civ 4 is a good game. It's fun. It's too bad we have to wait for a patch to enjoy it.

Just as an aside, if you're interested in stupid lawsuits:

The True Stella Awards

[BleckLord]

Originally posted by WhiteBandit

Or you know... you can do research before you buy something. That's the risk you take for being an early adopter of ANY product. It sucks, but that's the way it works.

You could have read the forums and saw that people with similar hardware configurations are having problems and realized you shouldn't buy the game yet.

I bought the game at 4pm on 10/26. You tell me what I could have found on the forums about crashes before I bought the game.

The most common thing I saw on the forum at that time was:
"damn, store X in city Y said they don't have any copies and won't get them until Friday, Thursday at the earliest"

Also, if you could tell me what exactly stands out about my system such that, from reading the forum, I'd know Civ 4 would crash:

AMD Athlon64 3000+
WinXP SP2
ATI 9800XT 256MB
1GB RAM

[seebs]

In practice, the easiest way to know the game would crash would be to notice that it's a brand new Windows game. Some crash more than others, but I have seen very few games indeed that didn't crash at least occasionally as released.

But once again, unless you really don't want to play the game ever, the only remedy of interest is to order them to patch it, and they're doing that anyway.

[WhiteBandit]

Originally posted by BleckLord


I bought the game at 4pm on 10/26. You tell me what I could have found on the forums about crashes before I bought the game.

The most common thing I saw on the forum at that time was:
"damn, store X in city Y said they don't have any copies and won't get them until Friday, Thursday at the earliest"

Also, if you could tell me what exactly stands out about my system such that, from reading the forum, I'd know Civ 4 would crash:

AMD Athlon64 3000+
WinXP SP2
ATI 9800XT 256MB
1GB RAM

Right. Let me quote what I said earlier in that same post.

"That's the risk you take for being an early adopter."

The two things that stand out about your computer:
AMD Processor and ATI graphics card.

I have both... and it works. But there is a disproportionate amount of people that are having trouble with that combination.

:shrug:

[Jack Noir]

Your August Sirs,

Thank you seebs and Imran Siddiqui for talking some sense back at my tirade. I am sure that you are correct in saying that a lawsuit would not be effective and probably a non-starter.

This does not change the fact that the user base needs someway to communicate, firmly, to software development and marketing when issues like this occur. I am not spending my time fixing my system and researching this forum because I hate the game. Quite the contrary. I want the developers to deliver it usable (the implied responsibility) the first time it is released.

It may end up that these companies ignore the rabble's whining and just cater to the people who have the right hardware. And it may come to pass that folks like me have to find something else to use up all our time. Both parties lose.

Jack Noir
(not trained in the law)