Class-Action Lawsuit Anyone?

[JdeFalconr]

I hate to say it but not everybody's ATI & AMD system refuses to play the game. Athlon64 3200+ and x800 Pro here, and it runs flawlessly.

[seebs]

I have an X800 Pro and a 3500+, and I get crashes. Occasionally. I have a couple of specifically broken saves, but for the most part, the game is fine for hours at a time if I don't scroll around the minimap too much. Five hours straight of play isn't so bad.

[BleckLord]

Originally posted by seebs
Because people copy software and return it so they can play it without paying for it.

That's the reality.

The TRUE reality is that pirates do not need to even buy the game to pirate it. The copy protection scheme doesn't work. People unscrupulous enough to steal Civ 4 are stealing it already. (see picture) Copy protection hurts only the good and honest people.

I don't think you understand, though: A class action lawsuit is not a public policy tool. We would have to get a law passed first, then sue. Furthermore, in practice, virtually no one who bought the game this early will actually want to return it and not buy it.

I'm not advocating a law suit as an instrument to define public policy. Consumers, given the freedom to return the software would be the mechanism of enforcement. Ship a broken game -> large numbers return it -> suppliers stop purchasing copies.

The notion of allowing returns on buggy software is an interesting one, and certainly it could be done, but it's economically infeasible, and it would hurt software development too much. The industry is already having a fair number of developers go under.

Its not our job to coddle developers. If they can't hack it though cookies. Consider it an added incentive to produce compelling, well tested product. We don't defend other industries that ship non-functional products. Why are software returns infeasible? Rather, why are they less feasible than returning used white goods to Walmart?

But in any event... Do I want my money back? No. I want a patch. Do most of the people complaining really want their money back? I don't think so; I think they want a patch.

Right now, if you could get a refund on the condition that you will never buy or play Civ 4, would you take it? I doubt it.

Yes, I would return my copy of the game until such time as a fix was found to prevent the continuous CTDs on my machine. Why? Necessity is the mother of invention. If 2K can't ship copies of the game cause of significant returns, then they are going to light a fire under Firaxis in a way that none of us can. You'd be darn sure that Firaxis devs would be here with updates and info, making sure that people with problems were confident of a timely solution and patch. Its been a week, I thought a patch would have been released by now.

In any event, a class action is still entirely the wrong tool for the job.

So true, we do agree on that.

[seebs]

Originally posted by BleckLord


The TRUE reality is that pirates do not need to even buy the game to pirate it. The copy protection scheme doesn't work. People unscrupulous enough to steal Civ 4 are stealing it already. (see picture) Copy protection hurts only the good and honest people.

You don't need to convince me, and indeed, copy protection is totally irrelevant.

However, free returns on software leads to a huge increase in people who buy a game, install it, then return it and keep playing. This is why we can't just go return it.

I'm not advocating a law suit as an instrument to define public policy. Consumers, given the freedom to return the software would be the mechanism of enforcement. Ship a broken game -> large numbers return it -> suppliers stop purchasing copies.

Agreed. Unfortunately, a sufficiently large number of people abuse such return policies that they are economically infeasable. In short, less damage is done by prohibiting returns than by allowing them.

Its not our job to coddle developers. If they can't hack it though cookies. Consider it an added incentive to produce compelling, well tested product. We don't defend other industries that ship non-functional products. Why are software returns infeasible? Rather, why are they less feasible than returning used white goods to Walmart?

Because if you return used white goods to walmart, you don't still have them at home. Software returns are heavily abused when they are offered. Physical product returns are much harder to abuse.

It is not our job to coddle developers, but if we want software, we are stuck with policies which make it theoretically possible for developers to stay in business. In the current market, software returns make this essentially impractical.

Yes, I would return my copy of the game until such time as a fix was found to prevent the continuous CTDs on my machine. Why? Necessity is the mother of invention. If 2K can't ship copies of the game cause of significant returns, then they are going to light a fire under Firaxis in a way that none of us can. You'd be darn sure that Firaxis devs would be here with updates and info, making sure that people with problems were confident of a timely solution and patch. Its been a week, I thought a patch would have been released by now.

My guess, given the nature of the crashes and bugs, is that this is a non-trivial bug to catch, or possibly a couple of bugs. It is not necessarily possible, no matter how much you care, to fix a bug quickly. In fact, I doubt any economic incentive comes close to the motivation the Firaxis people have from the fact that they have clearly been absolutely devoted to their product line since the instant the company was founded. These are not just developers; they are players. The question of whether or not a single user returns the game is not going to have nearly the impact that their own CTDs do.

So true, we do agree on that.

Yup.

Now, that said, I would personally like to see software returns allowed, and find some other way to deal with abusers. Unfortunately, it's hard to come up with a policy to deal with such a thing.

I agree that the copy protection does not have a discernable effect on the availability of the game to pirates, and that it solely inconveniences legitimate users. I have written about this, in fact, and even gotten published doing so.

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by MarkG
moved to help so the poster can get some technical help....

You have psychiatrists working for you in the help forum?

Unfortunately, many of these people don't seem to want to approach their issue calmly and rationally. They are either simply looking for attention or to flame Firaxis for a problem that they may not have been able to avoid.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Sabre2th
You have psychiatrists working for you in the help forum?

no comment

[BleckLord]

seebs, good post. Enough said on that topic.

Sabre2th
Unfortunately, many of these people don't seem to want to approach their issue calmly and rationally. They are either simply looking for attention or to flame Firaxis for a problem that they may not have been able to avoid.

This thread is for gratuitous venting of pent frustration at crashing/un-playable software. If you would like to help with my problem, check out the 'Crash to Desktop: Support and Debug' thread.

Despite the 'best intentions' of many authors, it seems that most of the people with working copies only stop to post in 'vent' threads. Most pop up to state we are being irrational, flaming, etc. but don't stay long enough to help. I think most of the people posting in 'my' thread are people with crashing problems.

We are looking for attention though. I think that all of us want a nice little comment from Firaxis about our woes. Oh, and a patch that fixes them ASAP.

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by BleckLord
ntentions' of many authors, it seems that most of the people with working copies only stop to post in 'vent' threads. Most pop up to state we are being irrational, flaming, etc. but don't stay long enough to help. I think most of the people posting in 'my' thread are people with crashing problems.

I have posted suggestions in a number of help threads over the past few days. Strangely enough, I'd bet that many people with working copies have given up trying to help the people who flame Firaxis because they really aren't very responsive to suggestions. When people have calmly asked questions, others have been very helpful.

We are looking for attention though. I think that all of us want a nice little comment from Firaxis about our woes. Oh, and a patch that fixes them ASAP.

Firaxis is most definitely working on a patch now. Their track record clearly shows that they support their products. It is also in their best interests, in terms of money, to get the game working properly for as many people as possible. That said, Firaxis CAN'T give us information about the patch. Their marketing department controls all information in and out. Also, if you've ever been involved in programming of any kind, you'll know that finding and fixing a bug is usually not as quick and easy as it appears. First, they have to identify the symptoms and work out the causes, which anyone will tell you can take a long time. Then they can go about trying to fix it, which again, is never as easy as it appears. THEN, they have to find and hopefully fix any side effects of their patch job. A patch will come, but they can't promise you anything until it's done.

[WiggleStick]

I'm beginning to see why all the software manufacturers are going to consols. One set of hardware and it works out of the box. None of this Whinning. Its not for me but it sounds like what the doctor ordered for some in here.

[BleckLord]

Originally posted by Sabre2th
Strangely enough, I'd bet that many people with working copies have given up trying to help the people who flame Firaxis because they really aren't very responsive to suggestions. When people have calmly asked questions, others have been very helpful.

I've pursued every suggestion offered in my thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141282

Unfortunately, it seems that almost all of the people who've posted in there are people reporting the same problem. I certainly haven't been offered any help from you. Flame threads like this are places for unsatisfied fans to relieve some pent up frustration while we wait for a solution. More and more it seems like the only solution is going to be a patch, and its becoming more and more frustrating that a patch isn’t forthcoming.

Firaxis is most definitely working on a patch now. Their track record clearly shows that they support their products. It is also in their best interests, in terms of money, to get the game working properly for as many people as possible.

Ok, I'm not a die hard Civ fanatic from way back. In fact I didn't even know this site existed until my ATI renderer problem. Civ3 and AC both worked for me w/o patches. How long did Firaxis take to patch them? Are we going to be waiting weeks? Months? What is this miraculous track record?

Have they even been able to reproduce any of these problems? We don’t even know if Firaxis can reproduce any of these problems. We don't know if the rumored patch next week will fix the CTD problem people are having. Why are we in the dark? Because Firaxis hasn't felt it necessary to enlighten us, and that just adds to the frustration. I was expecting a major patch within the first week.

That said, Firaxis CAN'T give us information about the patch. Their marketing department controls all information in and out.

In 2003 Firaxis employed about 600 people in Baltimore county.
http://www.co.ba.md.us/Agencies/executive/speeches/031020_chambercommerce.html

Also remember that this is after the developer doubled its facility size in 2002
http://www.igda.org/hr/IGDA_HR-SIG_GDC04_TutorialNotes.pdf

Firaxis is a small company. Their 'marketing department' should in no way be an impediment to communicating with the fan base. The devs just need to walk down to the marketing VP's office and get it pushed through.

Also, if you've ever been involved in programming of any kind, you'll know that finding and fixing a bug is usually not as quick and easy as it appears. First, they have to identify the symptoms and work out the causes, which anyone will tell you can take a long time. Then they can go about trying to fix it, which again, is never as easy as it appears. THEN, they have to find and hopefully fix any side effects of their patch job. A patch will come, but they can't promise you anything until it's done.

I've actually been responsible for designing, developing and testing (not at the same time, mind you ) hardware, firmware, software, and digital and mixed-signal integrated circuits. In every project I've been involved in customers get a teleconference at least every week, and email status daily. I've worked for companies as small as 3000 people (world wide) and as large as 30,000 people (in one city, more world-wide). {even there I could walk down to the VP of marketing for my division and clear an email to a customer in about 15 minutes}

I'm not asking for Firaxis to communicate details, just communicate. I'm not asking for a commitment to a patch release date, I just want them to say they are working on a patch, or they're still testing the patch. I want them to say what issues they are attempting to address in a patch. I’ve paid my dues, its time I got some service. The only reason I can think of for not saying a word about patch release and issues addressed by patch is that Firaxis has no idea what’s wrong or they don’t know how to fix it. It’s abusive to paying customers not to admit that they will not be able to play the game. Heck, it’s abusive not telling us when we can expect the fix.

I know of several projects (not ones I've worked on) that have been canned because the client perceived that not enough action was being taken (actually they thought that there were no designers working on it at all). Why did they think this? Because they weren't kept in the loop. A tiny little bit of communication goes a long way to smooth over an unhappy customer. In the end its us that matter right? That we're satisfied enough that Civ 5 sells more pre-release copies than Civ 4? That Civ 4 is a compelling experience, encouraging gamers to continue with the Civ saga.

[BleckLord]

Originally posted by WiggleStick
I'm beginning to see why all the software manufacturers are going to consoles. One set of hardware and it works out of the box. None of this Whining. Its not for me but it sounds like what the doctor ordered for some in here.

Not my problem. My system meets the specs; I've taken good faith efforts to debug my problem. Now the ball is in Firaxis' court.

I'm sure you wouldn't argue that the solution to a lemon car is public transportation.

There should be an expectation of quality for something that I pay $50 for, and if it doesn't work, I should be able to take it back. Now that I'm roped in to my purchase there's nothing I can do, is there?

[BleckLord]

The Better Busines Bureau on customer relations and handling customer complaints

Trust is the essential element for business success.When customers trust you, they will keep doing business with you, and they will send other customers to you.

If you are the only person handling your own business, you have complete control over the relationship with the consumer. When you hire others, you will need to train your employees to respond to customers in the way that you want.

Unhappy customers may file a formal complaint with the Better Business Bureau (BBB).The BBB would then work with your company to resolve the complaint. More often, unhappy customers will tell other people how badly your business treated them. Over time, your company's reputation could suffer. Don't let this happen.You can prevent most customer problems.

TIP: Develop a formal complaint-handling procedure and train your employees to use it.
It's a good idea to develop a consistent complaint-handling program, including a written policy. Be sure your plan includes responses that comply with the law. Consumers complain to the BBB about these kinds of problems:

Bad treatment. Customers complain when they feel they have been mistreated.This is the easiest problem to avoid. Make your customers feel respected.

Poor or slow complaint handling. Respond promptly. Acknowledge receiving the complaint, and say when you might be able to resolve the problem.

Failure to deliver a promised item of merchandise or a service. If there will be a delay, contact the customer to explain when the product or service might be available. The law may require that you offer the option to cancel or accept a substitute. It is certainly good business practice to do so.

Product or service quality is poor or damaged. When you sell something, it is implied that the item is good enough to sell ("implied warranty"). Because of this, if you supply a defective item or service, you are required to offer to substitute a good item or service, provide a repair, or supply some other solution.

Refusal to provide a refund. Make your refund policy available at the point of purchase before the sale is made. Abide by the terms of your policy. Customer can't locate help. Make it easy for the customer. Print your name, address, and customer hotline number on your receipts, contracts, and Web site.

Misrepresentation. Avoid this problem by teaching employees how to communicate your policies honestly, clearly and consistently.

Failure to honor prices, warranties, or deceptive advertising. Deliberately misleading customers is illegal and bad for business.

Misuse of private customer information. Create a privacy and data security policy that complies with applicable laws, make the policy available to customers in writing, and train employees to safeguard private customer information.

The key to good customer service is an honest and friendly attitude towards the customer. Pay attention to workplace stresses (conditions such as temperature, light, noise, access to adequate information, etc.) that affect your employees; do your best to make it easier for them to serve your customers politely.


TIP: Show that you're willing to help solve the customer's problem, even if you don't agree with what the customer says.

These practices can help you and your employees have a positive attitude with benefits for your bottom line:

Listen to the customer. If you are talking, you aren't listening. Listen actively, to understand the main points and show that you hear what is being said.

Don't run away from anger, and don't respond with anger. Say you are sorry that something made the customer unhappy, and offer to help solve the problem.

Make sure you understand the customer's complaint. Summarize what you think you heard and ask the customer if that is what he or she means.

Ask the customer to tell you exactly what kind of solution he or she wants. Be friendly and sympathetic.

Offer some kind of solution. If you can't offer everything the customer wants, try to provide a solution that will make the customer feel better about your business.

Make the customer feel important. Always thank the customer for doing business with you.

[WiggleStick]

Originally posted by BleckLord


I'm sure you wouldn't argue that the solution to a lemon car is public transportation.

BleckLord, I've followed your posts and youve worked very hard to try an figure this out. This wasn't meant to be directed at you, it was for the starter of the post. This isn't my first dog and pony show. I've been through this on almost every major software release. Even though you meet the min. req's There are literally millions of computer config's They only use so many Beta testers and can't cover all the configs. My experience says the patch is coming and things will look up.
As for the lemon car, Try returning a car as a lemon. They are allowed to repair it a number of times before considering it a lemon (about a year). Thats without even giving you a loaner. The patch will get here before then.
By the way. The solution isn't public transportation. Its pawning it off on someone else.

[Jack Noir]

Your August Sirs,

I am with you DKDiveDude, all the way.
People who say "this is the way game software is today" have no class and demand no respect. Upgrades are not the issue when other software producers manage to hit 60-80% of the current hardware. Moreover, they KNEW that this was going to happen and provided no upgrade path information. Just get the bucks.

Civ-4 would be considered a "product", in corporate law, in my location. The "seller" (or group of conspirators) has certain obligations to the purchaser. Disregard of these obligations is a U.S. federal offence when the product is purchased through the mail (internet).

I really like playing Civ-3. However, if I am not able to fix these problems with Civ-4 soon and get beyond this I will be more than ready to find a lawyer who will work on a contingency basis. The group of companies who distribute Civ-4 have a lot of money that a sharp lawyer would want to tap into.

Thanks for the list of “graphic cards that work”. I am off to spend a couple of hundred dollars to run this dog.

They KNEW that this was going to happen.

Jack Noir

[BleckLord]

WiggleStick, good post.

I know, I know, but if it was your car, you'd want them to repair it today, not next week. I'm able to play new games for a long time without crashes; I just can't finish off any games.

I think Civ 4 is a very good game, I just wish that it didn't have the issues it does.

Unless there is a categorical shift in how games are produced and published, its always going to be a crapshoot with new releases. I just wish that change would come. I'm sure this is a barrier for greater PC game penetration.