Civ 4 Music :)

[Dr Strangelove]

At the front of previous editions of the Book of Common Prayer (of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America) there was a document known as the Articles of Faith. This document was sort of a "Founding Charter" for PECUSA. George Washington was one of the co-signers, so were George Mason and James Monroe. That makes them a charter members. If they were deists merely tring to hide behind the facade of conventional religion why would they participate in the very foundation of one of the most conventional American denominations?

Deism pre-dates Unitarianism. The Unitarian church wasn't founded until the 1830s, so no, deism isn't a branch of Unitarianism.

Do not confuse The United Church Of Christ with The Unitarian Church. The former is a direct offshoot of the church founded by the Puritans. Probably a majrity of 18th century Bostonians belonged to it. The Unitarian church wasn't around at the time of the Revolution, so none of the Founding Fathers belonged to it.

[Diadem]

Okay, Okay, I admit, 'atheist' was a bit too strongly put. But most of them definitely were not christians. In fact, quite a few of them despised christianity.

We are talking here about people living 200 years ago. This is pre-Darwin. In those days, atheism was a much less popular philosophy. This can hardly be surprising, since atheism could not explain some very important aspects of the world - such as the existence of life.

Since Darwin, atheism is a rationally defendable philosophy - in fact it is the most rational one. Speculation is always dangerous, but I think many people who were deist, or unitarian then, would be atheist now. A god is simply no longer needed to explain the universe.

Anyway, whatever there exact believes, christian they were not.

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...
- Thomas Jefferson

Originally posted by dacole
The seperation of church and state was however more to protect the church from being corrupted by the state than to protect the state from religion.

LOL! Come on...

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
- Thomas Jefferson

... I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
- George Washington

[padillah]

Originally posted by Shaka II
Washington kept his religion well concealed and foiled most attempts to drag it out of him. But there was in general a difference between the religious denomination that these founders were born into or practiced early on, and that which they practiced later in life. Also, their true religious leanings were in general not disclosed in public...

Originally posted by Diadem
We are talking here about people living 200 years ago. This is pre-Darwin. In those days, atheism was a much less popular philosophy.

See, this is what I mean about arguing religion.

It can't even be agreed what religion twelve or so people living only two hundred (or so) years ago. How can you honestly be expected to decide the colective religion of the entire planet for it's entire history?

It's an absurd notion.

Tom P.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
At the front of previous editions of the Book of Common Prayer (of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America) there was a document known as the Articles of Faith. This document was sort of a "Founding Charter" for PECUSA. George Washington was one of the co-signers, so were George Mason and James Monroe. That makes them a charter members. If they were deists merely tring to hide behind the facade of conventional religion why would they participate in the very foundation of one of the most conventional American denominations?

Being a member of a church doesn't make one believe in that religion. There were no churches for deists to attend, so they usually went to the church they were brought up in. For Washington, it was Episcopal, but even his reverend says he was a deist. Monroe is also listed as deist. One has to read their personal letters to really find what they believed. In the case of Washington, he didn't leave much of a paper trail, and probably for good reason. In the case of Jefferson, he left 35,000 letters behind, but it's in his personal communications with close friends that you find out what he believed.

Deism has been around since ancient times, but it wasn't until the Enlightenment that it became popular.

Deist thinking has existed since ancient times and can be inferred from pre-Socratic philosophers such as Heraclitus. However, it was not until the modern era, during the European Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution, with their respective emphases on rigorous skepticism, deductive logic, and empiricism (experience/induction), that deism came into its own as a subject of philosophical discourse, particularly in France (Descartes, the Philosophes), Germany (Kant†, Leibniz), Great Britain (Hobbes, Hume‡), and the United States (Paine, Franklin).

Deism developed from the expanding influence of scientism in Europe and European colonial intellectual life. Newtonian physics, the intellectual basis and the aesthetic model for Enlightenment scientism, spread the idea that matter behaves in a mathematically predictable manner that can be understood by postulating laws of nature. Objectivity, natural equality, the prescription to treat like cases similarly are central principles of the Enlightenment mentality, ideas borrowed from Newton's observational/experimental method and put to use in all domains the Enlightenment mind scrutinized; these principles informed the development of the philosophy of deism. Exasperation with the costs of centuries of European religious warfare was a powerful recommendation for the new, objective frame for spiritual matters, a perspective the most notable minds of the time found appealing.

Deism was championed by Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire and some of the Founding Fathers of the United States. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are among the most well-known of the American founding deists. Thomas Paine published The Age of Reason, a treatise that popularized deism throughout America and Europe. Paine wrote that deism represented the application of reason to religion, finally settling problems that formerly were thought to be permanently controversial. Deists hoped to also settle religious questions permanently and scientifically by reason alone, without revelation.

The first six and four later presidents of the United States had strong deistic or allied beliefs.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Deism pre-dates Unitarianism. The Unitarian church wasn't founded until the 1830s, so no, deism isn't a branch of Unitarianism.

Do not confuse The United Church Of Christ with The Unitarian Church. The former is a direct offshoot of the church founded by the Puritans. Probably a majrity of 18th century Bostonians belonged to it. The Unitarian church wasn't around at the time of the Revolution, so none of the Founding Fathers belonged to it.

The Unitarian church wasn't around at the time of the revolution, but deism was.

But the Unitarian church was established in America by Joseph Priestly in Pennsylvania in 1794 and attended by Adams and Jefferson, though Jefferson was never a member. Priestly was very influential on Jefferson and helped him with his ideas for the "Jefferson Bible". But the Unitarian ideas were established long before this going back to the 1600's in England. Priestley's house in England was burned down in 1791, because of his religious views, so came to the U.S. in 1794.

The first official acceptance of the Unitarian faith on the part of a congregation was by King's Chapel in Boston, which settled James Freeman (1759-1853) in 1782, and revised the Prayer Book into a mild Unitarian liturgy in 1785. The Rev. William Hazlitt (father of the essayist and critic), visiting the United States in 1783–1785, published the fact that there were Unitarians in Philadelphia, Boston, Charleston, Pittsburgh, Hallowell, on Cape Cod, and elsewhere.

Unitarian congregations were organized at Portland and Saco in 1792 by Thomas Oxnard; in 1800 the First Church in Plymouth accepted the more liberal faith. Joseph Priestley immigrated to the United States in 1794, and organized a Unitarian Church at Northumberland, Pennsylvania, the same year and one at Philadelphia in 1796. His writings had a considerable influence.

Thus from 1725 to 1825 a more tolerant and rational belief was developing in New England, and to some extent elsewhere. The first distinctive manifestation of the change was the inauguration of Henry Ware (1764–1845) as professor of divinity at Harvard College, in 1805.

In the same year appeared Unitarian books by John Sherman (1772–1828) and Hosea Ballou (1771–1852), and another in 1810 by Noah Worcester (1758–1837). At the opening of the 19th century, with one exception, all the churches of Boston were occupied by Unitarian preachers, and various periodicals and organizations expressed their opinions. Churches were established in New York, Baltimore, Washington, Charleston, and elsewhere during this period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian

I think we officially hijacked this thread.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Shaka II


Being a member of a church doesn't make one believe in that religion. There were no churches for deists to attend, so they usually went to the church they were brought up in. For Washington, it was Episcopal, but even his reverend says he was a deist. Monroe is also listed as deist. One has to read their personal letters to really find what they believed. In the case of Washington, he didn't leave much of a paper trail, and probably for good reason. In the case of Jefferson, he left 35,000 letters behind, but it's in his personal communications with close friends that you find out what he believed.

Both Washington and Monroe attended the conferences which founded PECUSA. They participated in drawing up the "Articles of Faith", a document which clearly enumerates belief in the divinity of Christ and the existence of the Holy Trinity as key elements of the faith. They then signed the document. Why would deists do this? They could just as easily have begged off of the conference. Please also consider that Washington's priest had certainly taken as oath of allegience to the king. His statements may have reflected their poolitical differences. Jefferson on the other hand was definitely a deist.

Deism has been around since ancient times, but it wasn't until the Enlightenment that it became popular.





The Unitarian church wasn't around at the time of the revolution, but deism was.

But the Unitarian church was established in America by Joseph Priestly in Pennsylvania in 1794 and attended by Adams and Jefferson, though Jefferson was never a member. Priestly was very influential on Jefferson and helped him with his ideas for the "Jefferson Bible". But the Unitarian ideas were established long before this going back to the 1600's in England. Priestley's house in England was burned down in 1791, because of his religious views, so came to the U.S. in 1794.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian

I think we officially hijacked this thread.

Which denomination owned King's Chapel, the church in which Priestly preached?

[Enigma_Nova]

'the hell did we get here from a topic about Civ 4 Music?

[padillah]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
'the hell did we get here from a topic about Civ 4 Music?

Well, it turned out to be religious music and someone started arguing about religion and I said it's stupid to argue about religion so these two decided to show I was right.

...in short.

Tom P.

[Enigma_Nova]

I concede all points made and agree that you are right.

I want more Metal, Rock and/or Techno music in Civ 4, damn it!

[Dr Strangelove]

I'd like to thank whoever told me that the music clips were located in Assets/Sounds/Soundtrack.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
I concede all points made and agree that you are right.

I'd invoke 'Hitler' but it won't do any good. It doesn't count if you do it on purpose.

Tom P.

[dacole]

Who writes these entries for Wikpedia..always wondered how acurate they are...though these seem to be pretty accurate. Hamilton was the most conservative of the founding fathers religously from the biographies of him I have read. (And the most forward thinking, Jefferson and Washinton wanted to turn America into a nation of simple farmers..thank God that didn't happen). The most important part though is that despite what the neo-christian conservatives want to say the most powerful and influential of the founding fathers (Jefferson, Washinton, Adams and Madison where diests and unitarians who did not believe in the idea that all non-christains were going to Hell-in fact an argument could be made that early unitarians didn't believe in an afterlife at all-most modern ones don't either believe or worry about it at all though I'm not sure the unitarian church has an offical view on it. It doesn't have an "officall" view on much of anything.)

So does this thread win the award for straying most off topic? Anyway has anyone figured out away to add songs and get them to play only during a certain age? Do you just add the files to the ancient folder ect..?

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by dacole
Who writes these entries for Wikpedia..always wondered how acurate they are...though these seem to be pretty accurate. Hamilton was the most conservative of the founding fathers religously from the biographies of him I have read. (And the most forward thinking, Jefferson and Washinton wanted to turn America into a nation of simple farmers..thank God that didn't happen). The most important part though is that despite what the neo-christian conservatives want to say the most powerful and influential of the founding fathers (Jefferson, Washinton, Adams and Madison where diests and unitarians who did not believe in the idea that all non-christains were going to Hell-in fact an argument could be made that early unitarians didn't believe in an afterlife at all-most modern ones don't either believe or worry about it at all though I'm not sure the unitarian church has an offical view on it. It doesn't have an "officall" view on much of anything.)

I would have preferred Jefferson's idea for the economy over Hamilton's, but that's another tangent that we probably shouldn't go off on.

Regarding Wikipedia, here's an article by the science journal Nature that tested Wikipedia entries and says that it's as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica. So, you me and Wikipedia agree that Washington and the other primary founders were Deists and Unitarians, that's good enough for me.

Wikipedia survives research test

The free online resource Wikipedia is about as accurate on science as the Encyclopedia Britannica, a study shows.

The British journal Nature examined a range of scientific entries on both works of reference and found few differences in accuracy.

Wikipedia is produced by volunteers, who add entries and edit any page.

But it has been criticised for the correctness of entries, most recently over the biography of prominent US journalist John Seigenthaler.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm

Originally posted by dacole
So does this thread win the award for straying most off topic?

I don't know, but I think it's in the running.

Originally posted by dacole
Anyway has anyone figured out away to add songs and get them to play only during a certain age? Do you just add the files to the ancient folder ect..?

It's not that easy unfortunately. Follow the instructions of Common_Sensei above if you want seamless operation, but you have to do some editing of XML files.

An easier way is to create a parallel directory structure (ancient/classical/medieval/renaissance/industrial/modern) and put the music you want in these folders. In Advanced options, select the appropriate folder and away you go. But you will have to exit to desk top at the beginning of a new era to set the new music folder path. It looks like V1.52 made path selection much easier, so I would try this approach first.

[Enigma_Nova]

So does this thread win the award for straying most off topic?

DRIVE-BY FRUITING

[player1]

By the way has anyone noticed that music that is played in classic anicent era is more appropriate for pre-Classic ancient era, when game is usually silent.

Actually, when I think about it, there is no really any appropriate music for classical ancient era in the game (some of diplo music is close, but that's not it).

Should be fixed for expansion, if you ask me.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by player1
By the way has anyone noticed that music that is played in classic anicent era is more appropriate for pre-Classic ancient era, when game is usually silent.

Actually, when I think about it, there is no really any appropriate music for classical ancient era in the game (some of diplo music is close, but that's not it).

Should be fixed for expansion, if you ask me.

Yes, it was odd to say "there shalt be no music" for the start of the game, when at least a bit of drumming like in Civ 3 would have done no harm.

One of the problems with the Oracle --> Civil Service slingshot is that you skip the Classical era and start getting Medieval music before you've build the first Bronze Age unit, and then you're stuck with the choral stuff for 2-and-a-half epochs, until finally rescued by the music of the Renaissance.

Someone said 'how about some rock tracks?'. I was playing some Killing Joke the other day and their tribal-punk is ideal. Even the song titles fit -- Wardance, Follow the Leader, Empire Song, Requiem ...

Oh, and the modern classical is a too dischordant for too long. Then again - that's what's wrong with modern classical music. They tried to creatively break the rules and failed abysmally. I expect people pretend to like it for all the usual, wrong reasons (snobbery), ignoring the fact that its a unmathematical cacophony that is less musical than a white noise generator.