Apolyton CIVILIZATION IV PREVIEW (by MarkG)

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Oh and what concerns this, the AI was also pretty good at this, even in Civ3. You would know this, had you more cared about that game. So the "exploit" goes both ways, even if taking in account the AI.

Just because an exploit works both ways doesn't mean it's not an exploit. If you want to own a tile, build a city there, or expand your culture. Being able to claim entire subcontinents with a single unit is both a no-brainer and a game-breaker. You can still do so, but you gotta go the whole stretch and declare war to the people you want to keep out. That, or build an expensive Settler and bite the bullet of the high maintenance cost. That makes for much harder, more interesting decisions, and in it means that in the end the one with the strongest army and/or economy controls the chokepoint, rather than the one to got there first with a single unit, no matter how weak.

It's a good change

[Harovan]

You mean CtP-style zone of control is bad?

Good.

Still doesn't convince me, but nice to know.

[Adagio]

I like that change

[Locutus]

Not saying saying it's bad per se, but I definitely like this new system better. But CtP is not the be-all and end-all of TBS gaming, as you seem to be implying is my viewpoint. The thing is, the Civ genre progresses over time. Back in the '90s I absolutely loved Civ1 combat and the Civ2 UI, now I woudn't want to go back to it for all the gold in the world (well, except for a bit of nostalgia, but not for 'serious' gaming). The CtP series advanced the genre. Civ3 was crap for a good part because it didn't take any lessons from CtP and still had many crappy and obsolete features from the early nineties. With Civ4 Firaxis appears to be catching up on developments (though I'm still not happy with the combat and the Worker system, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before stacked combat and PW mods are developed ), and even making some advances of their own. This is one area where they did. ZOC worked well enough until now, but I expect that before long I won't want to go back...

[Harovan]

I expected something along the line "It's good in CTP, but bad in Civ4". Good job squirming.

And I especially liked this phrase:

Just because an exploit works both ways doesn't mean it's not an exploit.

An exploit is called exploit, because you exploit the weaknesses of your counterpart. If it works both ways, i.e. your counterpart does not suffer a weakness in that respect and is able to act in the same way, it can't be an exploit but simply abiding by game rules.

[clausewitz]

What about damages? There are hundreds of screenshots available now and all I could see was a city with some smoke... will there be burning buildings and ruins after air and artillery bombardments? This concerns cities with their houses and improvements as well as tile improvements.

Even those little craters and city ruins which were added to civ3 in conquest (if I remember right) imo were quite amazing though so simple.

Any info about that?

[Sir Og]

What was the CtP-style ZOC Sir Ralph.
How is it different from Civ2 ZOC.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by clausewitz
What about damages? There are hundreds of screenshots available now and all I could see was a city with some smoke... will there be burning buildings and ruins after air and artillery bombardments? This concerns cities with their houses and improvements as well as tile improvements.

Even those little craters and city ruins which were added to civ3 in conquest (if I remember right) imo were quite amazing though so simple.

Any info about that?

there are ruins when you raze a city but no burning or demolished building after bombing

smoke can show unhappiness in the city....

[MarkG]

Originally posted by kolpo
How are the civics balanced? What civic do you consider to be good?

there are civics that will help you if you take a military path, a cultural/great people path or a religion path

there will certainly be lots of discussion on the civics....

Do all leaders care equally about your religion/civics or are some more religious or civic oriented?

some are religious some are not

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

@Sir Ralph. Look, we could all argue back and forth on this matter-and yet not make any progress. For my part, though I definitely like the sound of sharing tiles, but I also understand the concerns you raise-especially the possible removal of ALL Zone of Control. For my part, though, I am happy to wait for Solver's preview-later this week-to see how the entire system fits together. As I said above, I am especially keen to find out about such things as Zone of Control, Forts and Barricades-both whether they are in and, if they are, how they now work.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I expected something along the line "It's good in CTP, but bad in Civ4". Good job squirming.

Not reading my post so you can troll easier

An exploit is called exploit, because you exploit the weaknesses of your counterpart.

An exploit is an exploit if it's not intended to work as it does.

Originally posted by Sir Og
What was the CtP-style ZOC Sir Ralph.
How is it different from Civ2 ZOC.

Not.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Sir Og
What was the CtP-style ZOC Sir Ralph.
How is it different from Civ2 ZOC.

It's the same IIRC. I haven't played both games for years, but I think it is. I just wrote CtP-style, because I associate Locutus more with CtP than with Civ2, even though I am sure, he knows both games.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Locutus
An exploit is an exploit if it's not intended to work as it does.

And exploit exploits a weakness.

If something does not work as intended, it is either a design flaw or a bug.

[kolpo]

Originally posted by MarkG
there are civics that will help you if you take a military path, a cultural/great people path or a religion path

there will certainly be lots of discussion on the civics....

Good, this shall greatly help replayability. I hope that there is a lot of dicusion about civics, because that would indicate that they are well balanced

Originally posted by MarkG

Do all leaders care equally about your religion/civics or are some more religious or civic oriented?

some are religious some are not

Cool and thanks for your answers

[clausewitz]

Oh no, what a shame! I was hoping for a more realistic aproach this time... I mean how nice and neat was Verdun looking in 1918? And in which condition were most cities in Europe in 1945? I hope modders will correct this - especially since there should be nice 3D-effects available now...

See attachment for what I mean...