Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[Xorbon]

Yeah. I think both side have made their main arguments. Those who haven't changed their mind by now probably won't change it with any further points.

By the way Commy, I think that's a pretty good list, but you're missing #14. Would that be Germany?

[Commy]

Yes it would, sorry about that...

[AeonOfTime]

@Heresson: There are mentions of Ethiopia on early pages, but not much of discussion about it

Ah, my bad. I should have mentioned that I was referring to your Mali discussions, which really brought up nothing new.

@Heresson: I've read your posts and You didn't make any real "contribution" in this thread

That's right! you got me there - as all my other posts: only senseless babble, no real content and an utterly inadequate use of smileys as usual. Note, however, that my ego stayed sheathed.

@Heresson: stay quiet and don't make me waste my time

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson
You've made a mistake and don't want to accept it. Nothing new.

Nasa, The Ego Has Landed.


Your mistake was getting involved in a thread about Mali and giving as your 'considered' opinion:

Mali Sux

following it up with:

OK. Mali isn't that bad.

despite revealing your own utter ignorance of Mali's achievements later:

Mali didn't make any (if You know about any, I'm willing to learn) impact on world history.

And yet, you had the unmitigated gall to accuse me of not being:

intelligent or good-willed

and of being:

conceited

.

I confess, it seems to me to take a lot of conceit to jump into a thread like this where people who are interested have shown in detail why Mali and earlier and later West African Civilizations were great, and five pages in simply ignore any of that information and start droning on about Ethiopia and handing out insults.


I'm not sure whether it's chutzpah, hubris or ignorance or a combination of all of them.

[Spiffor]

[AeonOfTime]

Flaming and headbashing aside, back on track: I have done some research of my own on Mali. Here a few quotes that I found interesting:

From BBC World Service: The story of Africa:

In the 13th century Mali rose under the leadership of the Malinke Sundiata to become renowned throughout the Arab world for its wealth and learning.

The website also has a very interesting page dedicated to the Mali empire.

From The Kingdom of Mali:

This disciplined and influential Empire thrived in the 13th and 14th centuries but began its downfall in the 15th (Martin, 82). After the passing of Musa, Mali never again had a leader that was powerful or influential enough to hold it together. When the Mali Kingdom collapsed, the Songhay empire in West Sudan took its place (Jackson, 212). *The wealth and power that Mali possessed were never again fully displayed by an African Empire.*

From A History of ancient Mali:

Ancient Mali expanded down the Niger River capturing several cites and sizing control of the river itself. The cities that Mali ruled over included Timbuktu, Dejenne, and Kawkaw (modern-day Goa). The capture of these cities and the Niger River allowed Mali to control tarns-Saharan trade routs along with trade to North Africa. The control of trade and large cavalry allowed Mali to build an impressive feudal empire [...]. In addition to an impressive government and economy, Mali boasted a thriving culture that included a mix of traditional African customs and Islamic practices. Eventually, Songhai, a province of Mali would rise to become the next great power in western Africa. There is no question, however, that Mali was one of greatest African civilizations to exist.

From Geographia, an introduction to Mali:

Mali reached its pinnacle of power and wealth during the 14th century, extending over almost all of West Africa and controlling virtually all of the rich trans-Saharan gold trade. It was during this period that Mali's great cities, Timbuktu and Djenne, became fabled centers of wealth, learning, and culture.

From Kingdoms of the Medieval Sudan:

For the history of Africa, an understanding of medieval Mali is essential. Though the topic of "state formation" has been the subject of some controversy in African studies, it is undeniable that Mali became one of the huge states of pre-modern Africa, with a complex governmental structure headed by the king and managed by officials, sub-kings, and bureaucrats. Moreover, Mali was one of the first states south of the Sahara to see the new religion of Islam firmly take hold.

I have visited and read about 20 websites on the subject, and the consensus for me is that Mali definitely deserves a place in Civ. It was a bigger empire that I even thought by reading what molly and the others contributed in this thread... In a chronology of African civilizations, Mali always stands out somewhat, and even the great Songhay empire that followed after Mali did not quite reach the peak of Mali's influence.

However, that only accounts for ancient african civilizations - I don't know about more recent ones, but that's not really the point of this thread either...

[Spiffor]

AeonOfTime:

I believe you're French. Here's a short French-speaking link that introduces Sundjata's rise to power and and the organization of the Mali empire. It's short, but it corresponds to what I've read elsewhere.

[AeonOfTime]

@Spiffor: I believe you're French

True and not true! I am german at the core, but moved to france when I was 9. I have been living there ever since, so I guess I'm more french than german anyway

@Spiffor: Here's a short French-speaking link

Errrrm... I think you forgot to post the link

[Spiffor]

Oops

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A//www.afribone.com/article.php3%3Fid_article%3D58&ei=RloDQ7i0H5KsQZv-0f4B

[M. le Comte]

Anyway Mali is in.

It's proven...

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy...ew_6129411.html

[Nikolai]

The link is invalid.

[Boris Godunov]

AeonOfTime Made me appreciate the choice of Mali more than ever.

I had forgotten that in some of my old Civ3 games, I had changed the Zulu to Mali anyway. I'll have to look back and see what leader/city names I had.

Actually, I'm more pleased with the prospective civ list for Civ4 than I have been in the past, except I STILL think Mongols shouldn't be in as a civ.

[AeonOfTime]

@Spiffor: Here's a short French-speaking link

Thanks, that's actually a very nice story of Mali It depicts it through small stories passed on orally - it is quite different from the english sources I had seen. I think I'll make a few searches in french and german just to see the differences...

[AeonOfTime]

@Boris Godunov: AeonOfTime Made me appreciate the choice of Mali more than ever.

Yay!

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Actually, I'm more pleased with the prospective civ list for Civ4 than I have been in the past, except I STILL think Mongols shouldn't be in as a civ.

Uh oh. Don't make me start a "Do the Mongols Deserve To Be In Civ IV?" poll.