Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[Boris Godunov]

@ molly, that's one of the better ass-handings I've seen.

[Heresson]

Do not praise molly. He's conceited anyway.

[Guynemer]

Pwnage of that scale deserves praise.

I agree partly with you, Heresson. I'd like to see the Ethiopians included as well; however, if we can have only one sub-Saharian civ, the Malinese are just as deserving.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Man, that was worse than the pwning given to Kuci on the most kids in America have 5 bathrooms thread!

[Heresson]

I don't think I've been pawned here; it's Molly who claimed that Ethiopia lost a war against Eritrea, why in fact it's won it. He wasn't intelligent or good-willed enough to understand which war I've ment, while it was pretty obvious... Also to him, as when I explained it, He quickly changed the topic and didn't question it.
With all its nice art, Mali didn't make any (if You know about any, I'm willing to learn) impact on world history.
Case is different with Ethiopia. It played an important role in Byzantine-Persian relations, as located on maritime route from Byzantine empire to India, by which Byzantium wanted to by-pass Sasanids. Its interventions in Yemen, which brought Himyarites to an end, and pushed Persian influence away, that it gave shelter to young Muslim community and denied help to Quraysh against them (as long as these stories are true) - it allowed Islam to start and grow, and that is a major historical event.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Heresson
With all its nice art, Mali didn't make any (if You know about any, I'm willing to learn) impact on world history.
Case is different with Ethiopia.
[snip]
it allowed Islam to start and grow, and that is a major historical event.

Except for that last event (I have not enough knowledge of Ethiopia to say whether it's true or not), all you said were "regional" achievements between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East, and not planetary achievements.

They are important achievements nonetheless, and Ethiopia is definitely a Civ worthy to be in the game as well, don't get me wrong. But in the past ages, when empires had only a "regional" reach (that is, before the European Age of Discovery), an impact on world history is rare, and due to chance (i.e. how well the successor Civs have fared once the Age of Discovery begun).

The Ghana/Mali/Songhay have completely changed their area, which is western subsaharian Africa. They introduced urbanism, organized religion, literacy (which was mostly religious in nature) and organized government. It was a radical change for the traditions in the area.
The "regional" impact of these empires was a cultural shift of great importance, similar in nature to the cultural shift that happened in the wake of the Roman conquest (christianization, alphabetization, organized government etc).

The Mali are mostly known in the West for their trade in Gold, for it may be their only impact on Europe (if we were Arabic-centred people, we would also be aware of the Malian centres of religious learning). But their main achievement was what they did to western Subsaharian Africa, which is something we westerners know too faintly to really care about.

[Heresson]

Thank You for information about Mali's importance.
I disagree, however, that Ethiopia's achievements are only regional. Ethiopia is located in such place that its achievements had influence on world history; war between an empire stretching from Spain to Euphrates and an empire stretching from Euphrates to central Asia and India is a major event. Of course, Ethiopia's role was not decisive, but...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

Do not praise molly. He's conceited anyway.

I don't think I've been pawned here; it's Molly who claimed that Ethiopia lost a war against Eritrea, why in fact it's won it. He wasn't intelligent or good-willed enough to understand which war I've ment, while it was pretty obvious...

Beware- bissiger Hund.

I'll ignore your sour grapes remarks about my intelligence and good will, given that you're not in a position to adequately judge either.


In Australia your type of response would be known as spitting the:

[Heresson]

You've made a mistake and don't want to accept it. Nothing new.
If You want to prove me wrong in Ethiopia/Eritrea case, please comment on my explenations why You're wrong, not on me and not on my other posts.

[Yarco_TW]

This thread is endless

This thread is endless.

I do want to list all civs in the world and start rating them.

I still cannot agree that a civ which is not powerful now is useless.

[Commy]

Instead of arguing about whether Mali is worthy, lets argue about whether Mali is worthy ENOUGH to get into civ 4...Here's a list of civs from civ 3, 18 of them in all...look at the list, and now, lets argue about which of them don't deserve a slot, because some other civ is better...

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Egypt
4. Persia
5. Babylon
6. Arabia
7. England
8. France
9. Spain
10. Russia
11. China
12. Japan
13. India
14. Germany
15. Mongols
16. Ethiopia
17. America
18. Inca

I definitely think that Rome and Greece deserve spots...Egypt and Persia, while not exactly world powers today, still are worthy...Egypt has produced some rather astounding works of construction, and Persia has embraced much of the mid-easts culture...

Babylon I think should be in as well, as it kind of represents all the civs in Mesopotamia (particularly Sumeria) which have much contribution to the idea of writing and to mathematics (again, Sumeria)...

Arabian culture is widespread, especially in its religion, Islam...it accounts for a wide variety of civs that have either nutured it or have come from it...

England, France, and Spain have influenced culture around the globe...the languages and religions are used by large populations, and while small nations in size, they are not small in stature...

Russian culture isn't as vast as those of its European counterparts, but all the same, it has played vital roles in many industrial and modern wars, and has accomplished a great feat simply by managing its, rather large self...

China and India have been centers of power, culture, science, and technology for long periods of time...both have also seen their fair share of warfare...

Japan, while small, has preserved its culture from the Mongols, China, and from Europeans and Americans...quite an amazing feat...even more impressive was the rapid economical and technological growth it went through, and in the process, has still preserved its ancient culture, even though it is one of the most modern nations...

Mongols have made their mark through warfare, and have effected a good chunk of the globe through their short-lived, but large empire...

Ethiopia I would put in before any other African civ...while it is small and poor now, so is Mali, and Ethiopia has had much greater contributions to culture and religion, to both Christianity and Islam...on the other hand, I can't say that for Mali...I'm glad Heresson mentioned Ethiopia, I'm surprised I didn't think of it...

America definitely deserves a spot, as it has great political and cultural influence, even though it has only be around a mere 200 years...

I think the Inca are the appropriate native American civ, as they had the largest empire, and actually concentrated on science and more culture things, unlike the Aztecs and north American Indian tribes...

Edit [as mentioned, I forgot 14, which was indeed supposed to be germany, so thank you]

These are my 18...if you can argue that another civ should replace one of these, go ahead...however, DO NOT simply sit there and say "oh, that civ sucks, it shouldn't be in the game" unless you can reasonably argue that another civ is superior...

[AeonOfTime]

@Commy: lets argue about which of them don't deserve a slot, because some other civ is better

Oh hell yes, let's do just that! I'm looking forward to reading the upcoming 7 additional pages of this thread

Honestly, I don't think that making a list and giving notes is going to accomplish much here, especially since most of what has already been said in this thread is starting to repeat itself...

I have not posted here anymore lately because I did not have anything new to contribute, but I enjoyed reading what has been going on. Now it is really starting to get ridiculous... just as the original Mali thread did.

@Heresson: please stop throwing your ego around - you have not even read what has been going on in this thread. You just jumped into the conversation with *mostly* useless posts and your arguments have already been discussed at length in the previous pages of this thread

[Rubychaser]

Zulu.

[Heresson]

@Heresson: please stop throwing your ego around - you have not even read what has been going on in this thread. You just jumped into the conversation with *mostly* useless posts and your arguments have already been discussed at length in the previous pages of this thread

They haven't been. There are mentions of Ethiopia on early pages, but not much of discussion about it. I haven't seen Lalibela or Ethiopian importance during Persian-Byzantine wars and the birth of Islam mentioned. If not molly (and now You), I wouldn't have to "throw my ego around".
So if, as You've said, You don't have anything to contribute, stay quiet and don't make me waste my time.
Especially that I've read your posts and You didn't make any real "contribution" in this thread.

[Nikolai]

I for one think it's time to close this baby.