Second Leader in a Civ

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by The Templar
What could be more evil than making catsup a vegetable?

And what could be more evil than calling ketchup "catsup"?

Seriously though, it might be a bit difficult to get a good/evil pair for each civilization.

[sophist]

Would you have to behave in an evil manner? If you didn't stab your allies in the back, would they be angry at you?

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by sophist
Would you have to behave in an evil manner? If you didn't stab your allies in the back, would they be angry at you?

Yes. If you choose an evil leader, you have to do everything the opposite of what you'd normally do.* It worked for George Costanza.



*Unless what you normally do is already evil.

[Alexander I]

Well, lets see about this... It might be a bit over-generalized...

America: George Washington (good), FDR (evil)
Arabia: Saladin (good), Khalifah Yusuf (evil)
Aztecs: Montezuma (good or evil?)
Babylon: Hammurabi (good), Nebuchadnezzar (evil)
China: Qin Shi Huangdi (good... not really), Mao Tse-Tung (evil)
England: Elizabeth I (good), Victoria (good), Henry VIII (evil)
Egypt: Hatshepsut (good... um, not exactly), Ramses (evil)
France: Louis XIV (iffy), Napoleon (evil)
Germany: Otto von Bismarck (good), Adolf Hitler (very evil, not PC at all)
Greece: Alexander (good), Drakon (evil)
India: Mohandas Gandhi (good), Ashoka (evil, not really)
Japan: Tokugawa Ieyasu (evil... not exactly), Meiji (good)
Mali: Mansa Musa (uh...), Sundiata Keita (um...)
Mongolia: Genghis Khan (evil), Kublai Khan (good)
Persia: Cyrus (good), Shapur II (evil)
Rome: Julius Caesar (good), Nero (evil, definitely)
Russia: Peter the Great (good), Ivan the Terrible (evil)
Spain: Isabella (good), Philip II (evil)

See how overgeneralized everything is? Most leaders have done both good and evil actions in the name of pragmatism, so it is very difficult to praise them for one action or condemn them for another on the whole. Only people like Ivan the Terrible are easy to classify.

[GeoModder]

Marilyn Monroe as USA leader.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Alexander01
See how overgeneralized everything is? Most leaders have done both good and evil actions in the name of pragmatism, so it is very difficult to praise them for one action or condemn them for another on the whole.

Well, we are already talking about a game that overgeneralizes a hell of a lot in the service of representing the whole of civilzed human history!

I'm talking about broad strokes.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by The Templar


Well, we are already talking about a game that overgeneralizes a hell of a lot in the service of representing the whole of civilzed human history!

I'm talking about broad strokes.

Yes, but it would be remarakably difficult to classify some people as evil. Too many people would take offense.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Only people like Ivan the Terrible are easy to classify.

Well, remember Ivan IV's other moniker is "Ivan the Great". So, yeah, hard to classify indeed. Most leaders have good and evil bits. For example, I consider Julius Caesar evil, who wanted to form the dictatorship that Octavius finally formed.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Only people like Ivan the Terrible are easy to classify.

Well, remember Ivan IV's other moniker is "Ivan the Great". So, yeah, hard to classify indeed. Most leaders have good and evil bits. For example, I consider Julius Caesar evil, who wanted to form the dictatorship that Octavius finally formed.

I regret to inform you that you are incorrect. Ivan (III) the Great (r. 1462-1505) was Ivan (IV) the Terrible's (1533-1584) grandfather. The two never even met.

[Novaya Havoc]

Russia should have two leaders: one for the monarchy, one for the communist era.

Civ has constantly touted the Communist characteristics of Russia, and it won't be dropped. But the Romanov history is so vast, it won't be dropped either.

Catherine II and Stalin will be the leaders -- I'm sure of it. No other Soviet leader really commands the name recognition that Stalin does, and Lenin's leadership style is very different from what evolved into Soviet Communism.

And stop nagging Catherine II all over the place. She accomplished quite a bit for Russia, and refined its nouveau western sensibilities. She, along with Elizabeth I, are perhaps the only two truly "great" female leaders that could rival the men in the Civ 4 civs.

-B

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
Russia should have two leaders: one for the monarchy, one for the communist era.

Civ has constantly touted the Communist characteristics of Russia, and it won't be dropped. But the Romanov history is so vast, it won't be dropped either.

Catherine II and Stalin will be the leaders -- I'm sure of it. No other Soviet leader really commands the name recognition that Stalin does, and Lenin's leadership style is very different from what evolved into Soviet Communism.

And stop nagging Catherine II all over the place. She accomplished quite a bit for Russia, and refined its nouveau western sensibilities. She, along with Elizabeth I, are perhaps the only two truly "great" female leaders that could rival the men in the Civ 4 civs.

-B

I really don't think they'll include Stalin, if only for the same reasons that they won't include Hitler.

[Solver]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
Catherine II and Stalin will be the leaders -- I'm sure of it. No other Soviet leader really commands the name recognition that Stalin does, and Lenin's leadership style is very different from what evolved into Soviet Communism.

I'll bet you anything that Stalin isn't going to be in Civ4 or expansions, and same for Hitler. Simply will not happen.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Solver


I'll bet you anything that Stalin isn't going to be in Civ4 or expansions, and same for Hitler. Simply will not happen.

I concur.

[Xorbon]

What about Lenin? He isn't offensive like Stalin, is he? Plus he was the first of the Soviet communist leaders.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Xorbon
What about Lenin? He isn't offensive like Stalin, is he? Plus he was the first of the Soviet communist leaders.

I agree. Lenin is much more likely than Stalin, though general concensus seems to favor Peter the Great.