The borders of your empire

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by Modo44

Except the engine would need to be tracing each unit's moves very closely, so that a 2-move unit could not cross through a 1-tile patch of your land, or scout (in one move, out second move) inside your territory. I think it is far simpler, and more realistic, that entering someone's territory with military units should only be possible by and along with declaring war.

totaly agree

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Modo44

Except the engine would need to be tracing each unit's moves very closely, so that a 2-move unit could not cross through a 1-tile patch of your land, or scout (in one move, out second move) inside your territory. I think it is far simpler, and more realistic, that entering someone's territory with military units should only be possible by and along with declaring war.

That is not more realistic by any stretch of the imagination.

EDIT: and although it may be more simplistic, it would not be any easier or harder to implement. How I love those "huurr, but how are they going to code it!@?!??" arguments.

[Modo44]

Tell me, when was the last time a large unit (say, a division, at least) of one nation (we are not talking UN here...) entered another nation's borders without that nation's consent, and the act was not considered a decalaration of war?

Or are you just trolling?

[Solver]

A huge amount of Soviet forces entered Latvia in 1940, and it wasn't a declaration of war but instead the choice of the Latvian working people to join the mighty union !

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Modo44
Tell me, when was the last time a large unit (say, a division, at least) of one nation (we are not talking UN here...) entered another nation's borders without that nation's consent, and the act was not considered a decalaration of war?

It has happened routinely throughout history, but "without consent"? That's the purpose of giving a casus belli - so that the country who's borders are being breached can decide whether the breach constitutes an act of war or not.

Making it an automatic act of war takes consent out of the picture, it's no longer up to the country to decide.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Solver
A huge amount of Soviet forces entered Latvia in 1940, and it wasn't a declaration of war but instead the choice of the Latvian working people to join the mighty union !

Oh, sorry, I forgot. (Not that a similar thing happened to Poland in 1939. )

Originally posted by General Ludd
It has happened routinely throughout history, but "without consent"? That's the purpose of giving a casus belli - so that the country who's borders are being breached can decide whether the breach constitutes an act of war or not.

The problem is, if you only give casus belli for it, someone could be scouting or even crossing your land long before you declare war. Plus, you assume that the visible large units are all a country has, so no fights would occur by just entering the other's territory. Both things are false, so it should not be possible without an actual declaration of war. Not to mention the stupidity of forcing the attacked to declare the war in the first place.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Modo44

Oh, sorry, I forgot. (Not that a similar thing happened to Poland in 1939. )


The problem is, if you only give casus belli for it, someone could be scouting or even crossing your land long before you declare war.

And there's a problem with that? If you don't make use of your casus belli, your fault for not seeing it as the surprise attack it was.

Plus, you assume that the visible large units are all a country has, so no fights would occur by just entering the other's territory.

I don't get what you're trying to say, here.

Not to mention the stupidity of forcing the attacked to declare the war in the first place.

Moving through territory is not an attack, but that is why a casus belli should be given, so that if the country percieves it as prelude to an attack, it can be treated as such.

[GAZ082]

Yeah, humm, perhaps if you have a open borders pact the other nation just send a SOD for elephant hunting or something like that.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Moving through territory is not an attack, but that is why a casus belli should be given, so that if the country percieves it as prelude to an attack, it can be treated as such.

Normally, that is fine. But remember that Civ forces some simplifications. A normal country has something called border guard (or what have you). This is not represented by any unit in Civ, but it does show, as you can see any unit close and inside your borders (somebody has to gather that information!). Meaning, any trespasser would have to attack this border guard to enter a nation's territory, if no ROP is active. Which would mean any large unit (of those represented as "units" in Civ) entering another nation's borders would have to fight, and hence would force declaring war. So, any intrusion means war.

[Solver]

On the other hand, the border guard are not real military formations, and units in Civ represent rather strong military formations. The borderguard has the power to chase people attempting to smuggle something in or such, but they are in no position at all to fight a group of infantry from another country, let alone mounted/mechanized troops.

[GAZ082]

Originally posted by Modo44

Normally, that is fine. But remember that Civ forces some simplifications. A normal country has something called border guard (or what have you). This is not represented by any unit in Civ, but it does show, as you can see any unit close and inside your borders (somebody has to gather that information!). Meaning, any trespasser would have to attack this border guard to enter a nation's territory, if no ROP is active. Which would mean any large unit (of those represented as "units" in Civ) entering another nation's borders would have to fight, and hence would force declaring war. So, any intrusion means war.

My empire will have its Imperial Border Guard! Just a good defensive unit with a ZOC ability!

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Solver
On the other hand, the border guard are not real military formations, and units in Civ represent rather strong military formations. The borderguard has the power to chase people attempting to smuggle something in or such, but they are in no position at all to fight a group of infantry from another country, let alone mounted/mechanized troops.

I know, and this is why any strong unit can enter "unscratched". But they would try to fight nevertheless, forcing a declaration of war.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Modo44

I know, and this is why any strong unit can enter "unscratched". But they would try to fight nevertheless, forcing a declaration of war.

Not neccisarily... it's completely circumstantial.


And don't forget that the majority of the game takes place before the modern era.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Not neccisarily... it's completely circumstantial.

Give a reasonable example, or stop trolling.

Mine is the Polish border guard in 1939. They did fight. All of them.

Originally posted by General Ludd
And don't forget that the majority of the game takes place before the modern era.

Does it? If I count the hours spent, it takes the vast majority of my Civ time to play Industrial, and Modern Age.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Modo44

Give a reasonable example, or stop trolling.

Armies would routinely travel through the lands of other's in the days of crusades and before. And it still happens today in various different circumstances, from soldiers crossing into another country to hide from an enemy, to the USA continuing to fly through iraqi air space after the first gulf-war, to a band of british marines accidentaly invading spain, ect...

If a country is entering a territory with the obvious intention of attacking... then my suggestion would allow for that to be an act of war. Yours, however, allows for nothign but that. I think it your suggestion force a war in circumstances where it might not be called for requires more justification.

Does it? If I count the hours spent, it takes the vast majority of my Civ time to play Industrial, and Modern Age.

Good for you.