cIV E3 stuff

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Locutus
Soren also said "basically the game and the AI code" -- so that's actual code, not headers. If he meant headers he would've said headers. Soren is one person who will know the difference...

Yes. A static library or DLL also contains code. Binary one. If he had meant the source code, he would have said source code and not used some obscure paraphrase.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Yes. A static library or DLL also contains code. Binary one. If he had meant the source code, he would have said source code and not used some obscure paraphrase.

Jeez, with all due respect, but learn English...

"the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL"

Binairy code is already compiled.

The 'using to compile' part refers to the code, not to the SDK as you suggested before. Soren is talking about code that can be used to compiled. Noone ever refers to a compiled DLL as code when the binary itself is not topic of discussion. A DLL is a binary, that which creates it is code. The code Soren mentions is source code, not binary code. That's not obscure at all, it's crystal clear... To specifically say source code would be redundant and even confusing: when one speaks of releasing the source code of a game, one ususally means the code of the entire game, as is sometimes done with legacy games like CtP2, Doom, Quake, Descent 2, etc. That's not the case here, only a small part of the code is released -- but the most important part (or at least we can hope so, it's of course entirely possible for them to screw it up and leave out a lot of important stuff).

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Locutus
Jeez, with all due respect, but learn English...

Please abstain from comments like this. They don't make you right.

"the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL"

Binairy code is already compiled.

The 'using to compile' part refers to the code, not to the SDK as you suggested before. Soren is talking about code that can be used to compiled. Noone ever refers to a compiled DLL as code when the binary itself is not topic of discussion.

Sorry, but this statement does not make sense.

Clearly stated is, that you won't be able to write a game executable, but merely a run time library. That's what a DLL is. Functions in this library will be called by the running application (compiled by Firaxis) on defined events to override standard AI behavior. Just like your Ctp2-modding, only that here it's not only a script (which is also included in form of Python), but compiled code, which makes it faster, more versatile and better apt for resource-heavy modding (which AI is).

In order to do this, you don't need any game source code. All you need definitions and declarations in form of a couple of header files. Did you need the Ctp2 source code, before it was released, in order to use your scripts? No, and same here.

Your function names will be predefined, because DLL functions are usually called by name. The data structures and arrays will have to be defined. Prototypes of functions, which you can call back to gather additional data will be defined. If Firaxis is nice (and I reckon they will be), they may include some detailed documentation and examples. May be an import library (although I doubt even that). That's all.

A DLL is a binary, that which creates it is code. The code Soren mentions is source code, not binary code. That's not obscure at all, it's crystal clear...

Not only not "crystal clear", but a bold assertion.

To specifically say source code would be redundant and even confusing: when one speaks of releasing the source code of a game, one ususally means the code of the entire game, as is sometimes done with legacy games like CtP2, Doom, Quake, Descent 2, etc. That's not the case here, only a small part of the code is released -- but the most important part (or at least we can hope so, it's of course entirely possible for them to screw it up and leave out a lot of important stuff).

Here you try to interpret every word said or even not said (like "source"). In your last post you imply, that Soren knows exactly what he says. A few posts above you state, the word SDK is one of the most abused words in the gaming industry and it may be used wrong in this case. Mind you, it was also used by Soren. Now what is it? Is it exact and to be interpreted by the word, or not?

I don't know what will be released. Neither do you. That is a fact.

I'm trying to explain you (sad that I have to, since you declared yourself a professional), that the described goal of modability can be achieved without having access to source code. You write a DLL. They call it.

If it is not necessary to release the source code of a brand new game, no company will do it. And in this case, it is not necessary.

As for your examples: In Ctp2 the source code was released long after the game was abandonned. In the other cases you mentioned, the source code was released no to achieve modability, but portability, as they are multiplatform games.

[Locutus]

A preview has been posted on Gamespy: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/civilization-iv/617487p1.html

Maybe this will convince Sir Ralph:

The new mod tools are laying Civilization bare. As with some of the previous games, a lot of the data is easily changed from a text file. But now Firaxis is using Python (an accessible scripting language) to do everything from the interface to random map algorithms. They'll even be releasing the source code. "It's way beyond anything we've ever done before," he says.

Other new stuff:

- The multiplayer game is being reworked to support what Smith calls "Pit Boss" mode, whereby a separate server tracks your turns. You can hop on for a live session and then carry it over to a play-by-e-mail game based on your and your opponent's schedules.

- Firaxis is rebalancing the strategic resources by more carefully working them into the random map generation. They're also making them less restrictive. Gunpowder units no longer require saltpeter and Firaxis will probably give players a technology to synthesize oil.

- Factories will decrease health, while certain structures will improve it.

- Cities don't riot anymore, but unhappy workers simply stop working.

- you can cash in a Great Engineer to instantly finish a wonder.

- Or you can save up your Great People and trade them in groups for Golden Ages.

- each religion will offer a unique wonder

[vovan]

Nice preview. Question. It is mentioned that

Cities don't riot anymore, but unhappy workers simply stop working.

Do we know much about this? Like suppose everyone in the city becomes unhappy, is there the possibility of losing the city? Also, what about happy workers? Do they work more efficiently than content workers? Or is there even such a thing as happy workers any more? And if so, won't we have the "We Love the King Day"?

[Spiffor]

- Or you can save up your Great People and trade them in groups for Golden Ages.

- each religion will offer a unique wonder

BTW, Locutus, on the SDK issue, I'd suggest to be a pessimist rather than an optimist (remember, excessive optimism is why Civ3 has been such a disappointment for many fans )

When Soren spoke about "basically the game and the AI code", he may well have aimed this comment to the layman, who doesn't know what an SDK is in the first place. This is especially likely given the context (E3), where Soren's full-time job is to show off the game to the general audience.

If Civ4 had been more of a niche game, where most players are fans and active members of the community, he would have probably weighted his words more carefully. But in a game with as broad an audience as Civ4, he may have felt inclined to say in a few simplistic words what an SDK is. The word "basically" reinforces me in thinking so.

In any case, I strongly suggest not to over-analyse what is probably a slip of the tongue. If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so. I expect the AI-programming tools to be powerful, but not to the point that you can turn Civ4 into Football Manager

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Locutus
Maybe this will convince Sir Ralph:

Some additional and, what is more important, clearer information. What they mean by "source code" and how far they would go, remains to be seen, though.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ninot
But what about the AI civs? Does the AI chose randomly from the 2 leaders, or is it chosen by the player before the game?

I imagine you get to choose, and "random" is one of the options. Civs don't have specific bonuses or personalities anymore, leaders do. Bonus-wise and agenda-wise, the 26 leaders are "as if" there were 26 civs from Civ3, or "as if" there were 26 factions from SMAC.

In these games, we could pick our opponents. I think we'll get to pick our opponents in Civ4 as well (and if they don't implement it out of the box, you can be sure the fans will have their way so that it figures into a patch )

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Spiffor
If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so.

Oh, but they did. They already said that parts of the game are Python scripts, which means the code is yours to modify. Same thing with XML. The deeper modifications would be scripts that need to be precompiled to DLLs for faster execution. The thing we do not know is what exactly will be available, and what will remain hidden.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so.

That's just the thing, he DID openly say so. What on earth else can 'game code' mean? Saying it's binary code is just bull -- you release binary code anyway, the entire game is binary code...

I'll be the last to be overly optimistic and I agree with Sir Ralph that it remains to be seen how much we can expect from this source code, but source code it definitely is. There's also such a thing as being overly pessimistic: saying that 'game code' must be binary code, because Firaxis would never actually do something the fans would like, is just as silly and paranoid as when Solver said a few months ago it was plausible that when Firaxis claimed they'd been playing 4+ hours of MP for over a year, that that could mean they had only done so once a year ago, and the output was entirely in ASCII art...

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic -- I'm realistic. And it's realistic to conclude source code will be released based on what Soren said (and reinforced by GameSpy), but it's also realistic to be somewhat sceptical about what to expect from it. But they're not gonna just throw one token class at us just so they can say they released code, I think we can expect a fair bit...

[Spiffor]

Did Firaxis ever released the source code of one of its old games? Did 2k? If yes, then I believe you. But if not, then I would be cautious. So far, we only have the "on the fly" words of Soren and the words of an E3 journalist for that (it is very possible that the journalist is hyped and jumps to conclusions - if the interviewer of the Gamespot video is any indication )

What we know, because it has been repeted enough at various moments, is that there will be a map editor, that rules will be tweakable in XML, that scripts will be doable using python, and that there will be an SDK for the AI. It's fairly impressive already. If the SDK is powerful (and I think it will be), the game will be more moddable than any other Sid Meier game. But I really don't believe that Firaxis will reveal nearly as much source code as CtP2, based on their history of not doing so for older games.

[Modo44]

Spiffor, you do not always have to compile things to consider them "source code".

The Python and XML parts already are "source code", as they are a part of the whole game engine. They do not seem like additions, but rather vital elements the game will require to run. Of course what we will get is not all there will be, but it still fits the definition.

[GAZ082]

"the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL"

Men, that means 'source code'. In Python you cannot make dlls coz is an interpretative language (like BASIC) and you cannot compile a sh1t, no DLLs, no EXE no nothing! You need Python or a program that understands Python, having a kind of embebbed Python interpreter in CIV.

To compile a DLL you need source code and a compiler, perhaps a C++ compiler, dont know. A DLL is a library of binary code that can be'called' from another program.

Soren is the AI guy, perhaps releasing the AI source code will be a nice way to customize it for medium or pro programmers and in that way, make us stop weeping before we start. We dont like how the AI handles promotions? Code an algorythm!

But releasing the full game source code? Mmm, dont think so. That costed lot of money and brainstorming.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Ahhhh, information overload-I THINK MY BRAIN IS GOING TO EXPLODE !!! Its so funny, every time I check my e-mail again, I find I have about a dozen or more new messages regarding civ4 ! I almost wish it was December NOW!!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Peter Triggs]

I agree that it would be very surprising if they were to release the entire game's source code. Even if it were to be done under some very restrictive license, it would just be giving too much away.

I interpret Soren's comment as meaning that we'll get at least the core of the gamestate and AI C++ source code which we will then be able to tweak to our heart's content and compile into a DLL to link into the game at run time.