Firaxis Site UPDATED with CIV IV!!!

[Kuciwalker]

Changes to units and buildings is not radically changing the game.

On the scale you can do it in C3, it is. I'm not comparing it to CtP(2), because the CtP series simply sucks in spite of its modability (for proof, just compare how many people bought C3 to how many people bought CtP2). I'm responding to your criticism that somehow C3 is less moddable than C2 or SMAC, which is absurd on its face.

hanging some game rules/numbers is not real modding.

That's practically the definition of modding, for chrissakes.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Locutus
In Civ3, could you display a 'Hello world'?

I rest my case...

And displaying "hello world" or other messages has WHAT to do with mods (as opposed to scenarios) and is somehow superior to being able to actually edit the effects of improvements?

[Solver]

Mods are, as you point out, more complex than scenarios often, changing gameplay elements. And a Civ3 mod can not add any new feautures to the game, it can only change some basic game rules. It can't even display a message. What if I want a rule in my mod that if you build 10 Universities, you get a temporary science boost? No luck. What if I want to inform the player whenever civ X discovers an advance, if the player has a spy in civ X? No luck. See, Civ3 mods can't do even the simplest things that mods do. Changing rules regarding to units or improvements is a much weaker thing.

[alms66]

You're fighting a loosing battle here Kuciwalker. These guys are right. CTP2's SLIC modding is far superior to anything Civ has done so far, though I hope Civ4 will change this since Activision has abandoned CTP.

Python & XML data files give me some hope, but after Civ3, I'm not holding my breath on it.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
Mods are, as you point out, more complex than scenarios often, changing gameplay elements. And a Civ3 mod can not add any new feautures to the game, it can only change some basic game rules.

There's no difference.

It can't even display a message. What if I want a rule in my mod that if you build 10 Universities, you get a temporary science boost? No luck. What if I want to inform the player whenever civ X discovers an advance, if the player has a spy in civ X? No luck. See, Civ3 mods can't do even the simplest things that mods do. Changing rules regarding to units or improvements is a much weaker thing.

You know, that seems like a basic game rule to me... and funny, I never saw a mod for C2 that tried to do things like that. Plenty of scenarios, though. Which leads me to believe that those are elements primarily of scenarios. And now, you're going beyond simply saying C2 had more modding capitality than C3, but that C3 "mods" aren't actually mods, which is absolutley absurd.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by alms66
You're fighting a loosing battle here Kuciwalker. These guys are right. CTP2's SLIC modding is far superior to anything Civ has done so far, though I hope Civ4 will change this since Activision has abandoned CTP.

I'm not arguing that C3 has better modding than CtP2. I'm arguing that it has better modding than C2 and SMAC, which is obvious given even a cursory glance at the respective editors.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Locutus
Shhht CyberShy, don't say such things. Your predictions have the tendency to not come true

Originally posted by Gramphos

The year isn't over yet, thgey still have time to release Civ4 (or maybe not )

I kinda hoped that nobody would keep track of my prophecies

[Solver]

Civ3 is better for changing basic game rules. Civ3 is worse for creating scenarios with scripted events, and Civ3 is the worst for creating "extra stuff" like I mentioned via editing - something that could be done, albeit in a limited way, in Civ2.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
Civ3 is better for changing basic game rules. Civ3 is worse for creating scenarios with scripted events, and Civ3 is the worst for creating "extra stuff" like I mentioned via editing - something that could be done, albeit in a limited way, in Civ2.

Can you give any EXAMPLES of that being done (or anyone even wanting to do it) in C2? Mods in C2 were mostly just like mods in C3, except limited by the fact that C2 had huge amounts of hardcoded stuff. In scenarios, by Conquests, scenarios are as good or better than the vast majority of C2 ones (especially looking at, say, the bestofnet set that came with FW). There were some really good C2 scenarios, for example some Star Trek and a LOT of good WW2 scenarios, but there are also a lot of things for scenario editing you CAN'T do in C2 that you can in C3. For instance, the Age of Discovery (or whatever it's called) Conquest would have been impossible in C2.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I kinda hoped that nobody would keep track of my prophecies

You're forgetting that this is Apolyton. Noone here has a life or anything else better to do

[Locutus]

You can add, remove, and wildly edit the effects of wonders and improvements in C3. NOTHING about the units, improvements, governments, or civilization advances is hardcoded

I'm not very familiar with Civ3 modding, but I'll have a crack at this: Can I make a unit that moves on both land and water? Can I make a city improvement that reduces corruption? Can I create a government that is immune to more than one spy action? Can I have a civilization advance with a negative cost? If I'm not very much mistaken the answer to all these questions is a big fat no.

I'm not even asking for things that would require a scripting language to implement because the option is simply nonexistant in the game. All the flags and fields required to do those things are there, yet the game/editor is hardcoded to not allow them to be combined as I asked. And it didn't take me long to come up with those examples, with some time and more experience with the game I could think of a gazillion others, I'm sure.

Yes, Civ3 editor can change some things that the Civ2 editor/text files can't, but don't even THINK of claiming that in Civ3 nothing is hardcoded, you're just making a fool out of yourself. But more importantly, Civ2 has an event language -- granted, it's horribly primitive (not surprisingly for a game from 1995), but it's there. Using this language and some other tricks, you can introduce new features, new unit abilities, new wonder effects, etc, etc, etc -- things that you can't dream of doing in Civ3.

That's practically the definition of modding, for chrissakes.

If you don't know any better maybe...

And displaying "hello world" or other messages has WHAT to do with mods (as opposed to scenarios) and is somehow superior to being able to actually edit the effects of improvements?

Download some CtP2 mods and see for yourself. Just because you were never able to make real mods because you've got both your hands tied behind your back when modding Civ3, doesn't mean that being able to change more than some fixed statistics and a few pre-determined rules is not ESSENTIAL to modding.

I never saw a mod for C2 that tried to do things like that.

Try CtP. Very few scenarios for those games, just mods.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, Civ3 editor can change some things that the Civ2 editor/text files can't, but don't even THINK of claiming that in Civ3 nothing is hardcoded, you're just making a fool out of yourself.

I meant no value is unchangeable, not that there were no limits to the values you could give units. For example, you can't give negative movement to things in any game AFAIK - it's nonsensical. And it is possible to have units move on land and water.

In CtP(2), can you give units complex or imaginary attack values? See! Too much hardcoding

[Kuciwalker]

Download some CtP2 mods and see for yourself. Just because you were never able to make real mods because you've got both your hands tied behind your back when modding Civ3, doesn't mean that being able to change more than some fixed statistics and a few pre-determined rules is not ESSENTIAL to modding.

Go complain to MarkG about the names in the C3 downloads section, and post a thread in the C3-editing forum about how they shouldn't call all their stuff "mods".

And I don't run CtP mods because CtP2 doesn't seem to WORK on XP. Mods certainly don't.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And I don't run CtP mods because CtP2 doesn't seem to WORK on XP. Mods certainly don't.

Funny. I run windows XP with Ctp2 mods and have never had a problem.

[LDiCesare]

Indeed CtP2 works on XP. If Soren says he hopes he will have at least as much moddability as CtP, I think it means he recognizes that CtP is way more moddable than the Civ series.
And events etc are usable in mods in c2. Take Seeds of Greatness, keep the rules.txt alone (edit the special characters and locations out) ad you've got a nice mod where taking an opponent's settler gives you one. Of course, that's hard coed in C3.
And Civ3 is not as moddable as Civ2 ToT. You can only have one map.