Firaxis Site UPDATED with CIV IV!!!

[Locutus]

That is one more reason why you should visit Apolyton and not CFC Our fact list only contains facts

[Solver]

I went there during the hours when Apolyton was down .

[Locutus]

Excuses, schmexcuses

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Locutus
Shhht CyberShy, don't say such things. Your predictions have the tendency to not come true

The year isn't over yet, thgey still have time to release Civ4 (or maybe not )

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
But when reading that stuff, always remember that some of it is PR, and that PR is partially BS. No, it really looks like Civ4 will be very moddable - all data contained in XML files, AI scripts written in editable Python files, as well as the ability to use Python for mod scripts, that's great. It looks to be at least as moddable as CtP.

AT LEAST?

You don't have some buggy SLIC here, this is a full-fledged programming language. This is going to be w00tly moddable.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
However, somewhere it said "Civ3 already had great mod support, and we want to enhance that". Now, that is BS - it was not until the expansions that many things made it to the editor, and even then, much remained hardcoded, and no scripting available - which is less moddable than Civ2 or SMAC, in fact.

C3 had FAR more moddability than C2 or SMAC. FAR more was hardcoded in C2 or SMAC. You're the one spewing BS.

[Solver]

Kuci, buggy SLIC? Exactly how many mods did you make for CtP? And exactly how many mods have you played for Civ3 that not only add new units and techs, but also introduce entirely new gameplay feautures, as well as absolutely change the AI? Even with my limited exposure to Civ2, I know very well it had scripts for scenarios... scripts that could create complex situations. Civ3 couldn't even have fixed alliances without expansions - made WW2, a basic scenario, impossible. Where's AI/event scripting in Civ3?

Remember that out of the box Civ3 had ridicilous editability. No starting points for map editing, many basic values missing from the editor... bah.

[LDiCesare]

I don't think CtP's SLIC was buggy at all. What could be buggy was the C++ code called behind (SLIC, or python for cIV, is only a way to call the innards of the game - these matter and these are the complex thing, creating a scripting language is not as hard).

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You don't have some buggy SLIC here, this is a full-fledged programming language. This is going to be w00tly moddable.

1. You're in no position to judge how buggy SLIC may or may not be. If you were, I would know.

2. How well Civ4 will do in terms of moddability all hinges entirely on the implementation. XML and Python are the nice and popular buzzwords of the moment, but in and off themselves these buzzwords are meaningless. Just because you use 'kewl' technology doesn't mean you can't royally screw it up. It entirely depends on how well the XML and Python functionality is hooked into the core game engine. If Fixaris does a good job on this, they can exceed the CtP series by a long shot. But if they do a poor job (and they do have a track record in this respect), then in spite of the fact that XML and Python sound far more impressive than AIP and SLIC, Civ4 would still fall miles short of CtP.

I have faith in Soren and the rest of the team and remain optimistic for the time being, but you can't make any assumptions in advance how well Civ4's moddability will compare to CtP's.

3. If you want to compare Python and SLIC as languages, I know both languages fairly well (which for SLIC is a severe understatement) and I can tell you that IMO SLIC is the superior one to use in the context of a Civ game. As far as the syntax, contextual constraints and semantics are concerned, Python is intended for power users while SLIC is far more newbie-friendly (which does not mean you can't do powerful things with it as well). And most of the people who will be using Python for Civ4 will be newbies.

Also, exactly because Python is a "full-fledged programming language" as you want to call it, I can see some serious problems arising: if people can program anything they want with it, it may open up Pandora's box for cheaters. Also, nefarious individuals could incorporate viruses, trojans and other malicious software into their mods and scenarios. Nothing kills a modding community faster than that, I can assure you...

[Kuciwalker]

1. You're in no position to judge how buggy SLIC may or may not be. If you were, I would know.

I read the CtP2 Source code project forum. Specifically, I've noticed LOTS of comments about bugs with SLIC functions.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I read the CtP2 Source code project forum. Specifically, I've noticed LOTS of comments about bugs with SLIC functions.

Yes, that's because there's no point in discussing the 99% of SLIC that does work

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
Remember that out of the box Civ3 had ridicilous editability. No starting points for map editing, many basic values missing from the editor... bah.

Starting points are for scenario editing, not modding. And there were workarounds made quickly. It was pretty simple, in fact.

Even considering the values that weren't unlocked in the editor, C3 had far more modability than C2. C2 had dozens of weird things hardcoded about individual units. There were entire guides devoted to listing these things (such as Musketmen obsolescing all other infantry automatically) that had been found out through painful experimentation. You could change the cost, upkeep, and required tech for an improvement in C2, that was basically it. You can add, remove, and wildly edit the effects of wonders and improvements in C3. NOTHING about the units, improvements, governments, or civilization advances is hardcoded, except maybe the different era graphics for Workers (I never quite figured out how it works). In C2, you could barely do anything. In C3, you can radically change the game.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Even considering the values that weren't unlocked in the editor, C3 had far more modability than C2.

In Civ3, could you display a 'Hello world'?

I rest my case...

[Solver]

With that comment, you clearly show ignorance. First, it's logical that the comments are about the broken parts, not the working ones. Second, most comments about SLIC there are suggestions of improving certain SLIC functions or implementing new ones, not existing ones behaving wrongly. Third, with that "buggy" SLIC CtP has many mods that change/add much more to the game than any Civ3 or Civ2 mod could ever hope.

And reading the forum is nothing. You can not judge SLIC as buggy unless you develop some SLIC scripts for the game, which you have not done.

I can tell you that IMO SLIC is the superior one to use in the context of a Civ game. As far as the syntax, contextual constraints and semantics are concerned, Python is intended for power users while SLIC is far more newbie-friendly (which does not mean you can't do powerful things with it as well). And most of the people who will be using Python for Civ4 will be newbies.

The great thing about SLIC is that it has a C-like syntax. Meaning that the learning curve for those who know C/C++ is very low. Python does not have a syntax that similar to C.

And indeed, the power of a scripting language in a game depends directly on how much stuff is exposed to objects available through scripting. As Locutus says, SLIC is not a fully-fledged programming language, yet most stuff in CtP is exposed via SLIC, making it very, very powerful.

[Solver]

In C3, you can radically change the game.

Changes to units and buildings is not radically changing the game. Give me a new feauture. Implement units that you or another civ may or may not gain when a tech is discovered. Implement a new option when taking cities that would be to enslave population, adding the population in your other cities. Implement a migration model. Implement free defenders with each city founded.

You can not do any of those things in Civ3, because it does not have any scripting, and is poor for modding. Changing some game rules/numbers is not real modding. And all of those things can be done and have been done for CtP, which is radical changes - you can't do that in Civ3, period. Neither you can in Civ2, but at least it had some scripts.