Espionage & Assymetrical Warfare

[Stefu]

I think there should be one 'Special Forces' unit for both anti-terrorism and black ops.

Possible division of DarkCloud's ops between the three units:

Bribe unit: Not sure about this. In theory this could even be done through the game screen, without units - through right-click menu. However, in this case this should cost a buttload, so that just buying the charging army doesn't become a commonplace occurrence. Also, it should be impossible under certain conditions.
Bribe City: Revolutionary Agent, through cells
Assassinate general: Special forces (Maybe spy, too?)
Assassinate ruler: Special forces
Poison water supply: Special forces
Plant WMDs: Special forces (I don't see the need for three different types of WMD, unless the bio-agent has a chance of disease spreading.)
Steal tech: Spy
Establish embassy: Through the dip-screen
Spy on city: Spy
Destroy buildings: All can do this (with spy this costs more, and revolutionary agent does this through cells)
Sabotage production: Production being sabotaged should be one of the consequences of strike, which is invited by the rev. agent (throuh cells). The strike would also have other consequences - production stops and all the resources in the city's area become temporarily unusable.
Incite riot: Rev. agent (through cells)
Incite government change: Rev. agent (if this is possible at all - should require a buttload of money and big revolutionary cells to even catch on)
Decrease productivity: Rev. agent (through cells)
Steal money: Spy
Destroy railroad: Spec. forces
Mine road: Spec. forces (Maybe a military engineer unit for this purpose and a few others, too?)
Call airstrike: Spec. forces
Infiltrate revolutionary cell: Spy (This gives you a view on how big the rev. cell is, perhaps some info about other revolutionary cells in your country, makes it easier to destroy the cell and gives you a chance to sabotage the goings-on of that cell - bwahaha!)
Destroy revolutionary cell: Spec. forces

[DarkCloud]

Thanks for the acknowledgement Shogun Gunner

However, if we were to make the spy a group of units, then we should shy away from US brand names like Delta Force and Green Beret... I would rather support more generic and universal names such as:

Emissary/Diplomat (geared toward diplomacy- gains bonuses)
*Bribe Unit (BONUS)
*Bribe Town (BONUS)
*Steal Technology
*Establish Embassy (BONUS)
*Spy on City
*Incite Riot

Spy (More geared toward individual covertops)
*Assassinate General (possibly not)
*Assassinate Ruler (possibly not)
*Poison Water Supply (BONUS)
*Plant BioAgent
*Steal Technology (BONUS)
*Spy on City (BONUS)
*Sabotague Production (BONUS)
*Incite Riot (BONUS)
*Incite Change of Government (BONUS)
*Decrease Productivity (BONUS)
*Call Airstrike (BONUS)

Revolutionary/Terrorist/Infiltrator (more geared toward destruction)
*Assassinate General (BONUS)
*Assassinate Ruler (BONUS)
*Call Airstrike
*Mine Road (BONUS)
*Destroy Railraod (BONUS)
*Destroy Buildings (BONUS)
*Spy on City
*Plant BioAgent
*Plant Chemical Agent
*Plant Nuclear Agent
*Poison Water Supply
*Bribe Unit
*Bribe Town

Elite SpecOps (dedicated to destruction and inciting riots)
*Plant Nuclear Device (BONUS)
*Poison Water Supply (BONUS)
*Plant Chemical Agent (BONUS)
*Plant BioAgent (BONUS)
*Assassinate General (BONUS)
*Assassinate Ruler (BONUS)
*Steal Technology
*Destroy Buildings
*Sabotague Production
*Destroy Railroad
*Mine Road
*Call Airstrike (BONUS)

[DarkCloud]

Well, it seems I should have looked at this second page Stefu seems to already have done what I did without my realizing that he had already done so

I guess I'll comment on his suggestions:

Bribe unit: Not sure about this. In theory this could even be done through the game screen, without units - through right-click menu. However, in this case this should cost a buttload, so that just buying the charging army doesn't become a commonplace occurrence. Also, it should be impossible under certain conditions.

Well, I would like to suggest that units cannot bribe other units because it is nto very often that a unti will trust a random general walking out to parley and bribe him... and generals don't have much diplomatic training- whereas a spy would- therefore, I think that the spy unit should be the only unit dedicated to bribery.

-
And I basically suggest 3 types of WMD to simulate the real world and to have different cost/damage levels for each... a poorer civ could afford Bio whereas only the rich could afford nuclear... and chem would be in the middle- it would have a lower propensity of doing a LOT of damage, but if it did do damage, it could lower a city's population by 75% instead of nuke's 50%... and it would cost either much more or much less than nukes...

If the WMD's had different strengths and weaknesses, then an argument could be made for having different levels of them
-

Infiltrate revolutionary cell: Spy (This gives you a view on how big the rev. cell is, perhaps some info about other revolutionary cells in your country, makes it easier to destroy the cell and gives you a chance to sabotage the goings-on of that cell - bwahaha!)
Destroy revolutionary cell: Spec. forces

Good addition to the list!

I would suggest that the Infiltrator and the Spy can Infiltrate the Rev cell... whereas the Elite SpecOps are the only ones capable of destroying one

good work stefu

[Kuciwalker]

I'd like WMD's to differ significantly in effect and execution. Nukes would be missiles, and basically would work how they did in C3 (though maybe a bit better damage). Chemical weapons would be an option for artillery - gas barrage. It essentially does an X-strength bombard with on ROF against every unit in the stack (I have no idea what X should be), and in addition will ALWAYS remove a pop point (or two?) from a city. Bioweapons would be abstracted in the espionage panel, "plant bioweapon in city X", and it would operate just like a plague would (if they're implemented in C4). It would spread to other cities connected in the trade network with it, especially through airports and stuff.

Destroy railroad: Spec. forces

It's called pillage

[Stefu]

Yeah, but "Destroy railroad" could be done during peacetime.

[Kuciwalker]

Just make a privateer-type unit then.

[Sandman]

I'm going to go for a slider-style system, like in Galciv. Some of the ideas being discussed here are far too detailed to be useful. Even in civ2, I only used most of the spy missions once in a blue moon.

One idea I had was to have a city-based rather than civ-based espionage. Instead of allocating a certain amount of money to spy on a civ generally, you can spy on their cities. The cost of spying in a certain city would depend on its proximity, its size, its improvements, the government of the owning civ. etc.

In this way, you culd get large, open cities that were riddled with spies spying on the city and each other, and it would also be possible to build 'closed cities' which would have few links to the outside world.

I'd rather not see phrases like 'assymetric warfare' or 'WMD' used.

[DarkCloud]

Just make a privateer-type unit then.

That's the whole point of the spy

As for your analysis of WMD, skywalker- you seem to neglect that there is such a thing as a carriable "suitcase nuke" and "tactical nukes" as well as mobile "chemical agents" the units you state would be better suited for the UNITS thread than this discussion on espionague.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
However, if we were to make the spy a group of units, then we should shy away from US brand names like Delta Force and Green Beret... I would rather support more generic and universal names

I most certainly agree. These units would be employed by any civ, so they should be universal.

[POTUS]

Spies, Special Operations, etc. if they are in the game should be privateer-type units.

Diplomats should only be able to establish embassies, or steal technology. And, if they steal technology, and get caught, one they are killed, two the AI will send units, or spies, or diplomats. to steal tech from you.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

That's the whole point of the spy

As for your analysis of WMD, skywalker- you seem to neglect that there is such a thing as a carriable "suitcase nuke" and "tactical nukes" as well as mobile "chemical agents" the units you state would be better suited for the UNITS thread than this discussion on espionague.

Then just have a "Plant Nuclear Bomb" option on the espionage screen. Why make a spy unit?

EDIT: actually, I'd prefer that nukes stay as a missile. While yes, you can have a "suitcase nuke", removing that makes a distinction between the different roles of the different WMD's - nukes are for big nations to threaten each other with but not use too much, chemical weapons are used more frequently and with less of a diplomatic penalty, and are used as a part of a conventional war, and bioweapons are for terrorism and assymetrical warfare.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by skywalker

Then just have a "Plant Nuclear Bomb" option on the espionage screen. Why make a spy unit?

It doesn't need to be a spy unit. It could also be some of the other potential unit types discussed above.

Having a unit gives the game more context. Part of the fun is getting the weapons, troops, whatever to the battle. Also, if you have to move a unit, it stands a chance of being detected or intercepted by counterspy actions.

It just wouldn't be the same to go to a screen and select "plant nuclear bomb" and switch back to the screen to see a city blown up.

[Kuciwalker]

It doesn't make much sense to march the unit across the battlefield, either, when it's purpose is something like this. For example, wouldn't a spy take a plane? If you travel to a foreign country, you generally fly there (or maybe take a train).

[Kuciwalker]

Look at it this way: I'm Palestine. I want to commit a nuclear attack against the US. You expect me to build a transport, load the guy with the bomb in it, sail it up to DC, unload the guy, and have him plant the nuke? No, he flies to Germany or France or Britain, takes a transatlantic flight to Washington (or more likely New York), takes a connecting flight to Washington, drives to Washington, or takes the train. He then blows himself up, if he isn't caught by security.

[Shogun Gunner]

Take a plane with a nuclear bomb checked in luggage?