Espionage & Assymetrical Warfare

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I would however, have to argue against the amphibious unit idea- I would rather have the spy transported by a transport and let off- just because it would seem strange to have the spy 'gliding across water' unless of course the graphical image were to change when it goes into water... and seemingly model a civilian cruiser carrying a spy unit... that would make sense.

That's exactly what I was suggesting. To the player whose unit it is, it look like a transport with some sort of spy graphic in it. To everyone else, it just looks like a transport. Or even, to everyone you're at peace with it is totally invisible. I make the disctintion of war/peace because it is much more difficult to land a spy on shore during wartime so it didn't seem fair to have the boat be invisible during war.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by wrylachlan

One of the problems with having the spy as a unit is how do you differentiate potential spying activities with "just passing through"? If America wants to spy on Russia, it sends a spy unit by plane to allied Germany. Before the spy can get to Russia, the Germans "discover" it. Does your relationship with Germany sour? Even though the spy was meant for Russia and just passing through?

My solution to this problem is that if a friendly nation sees a spy, there is no problem. BUT... they keep track of that spy. If you try to USE that spy, his attempt allways fails and you get a reputation hit. If an enemy nation sees a spy they kill it on sight, or maybe capture it to trade it back in exchange for one of theirs.

- If you/AI discover a 'friendly' spy, it remains visible until it leaves the country.
- The strongest level of alliance should mean that all 'spy' type units are automatically visible to the alliance members.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
and fosse's idea about bulk ratings for units would also serve the idea of a spy unit being less massive than armor, etc.

I would however, have to argue against the amphibious unit idea- I would rather have the spy transported by a transport and let off- just because it would seem strange to have the spy 'gliding across water' unless of course the graphical image were to change when it goes into water... and seemingly model a civilian cruiser carrying a spy unit... that would make sense.

It's still utterly ridiculous to have to load your spy into one of your transports and then drop it off next to, say, Washington.

[POTUS]

Originally posted by skywalker
It's still utterly ridiculous to have to load your spy into one of your transports and then drop it off next to, say, Washinton.

Yep. Where is Washinton anyways? Can't drop someone off at a non-existant place.

[okblacke]

OK, spies in Civ3 suck, I think we're agreed.

But not necessarily because they're abstracted. (Everyone seems to have good things to say about GalCiv's spies.)

The key problem with Civ 3 spies is that it's rolling dice without knowing what number you're going for, or even how many sides the dice have. So if Civ 4 spies are going to be abstracted, how about a little intelligence to go along with our actions?

If spies are going to be units:

* They should be plant-able in any city where you have an embassy.

* They should be invisible.

* They should occupy no space, i.e., if they're the only unit on a tile, that tile should be considered "empty".

* The chance for detection should be extremely low if they're just moving around. Riskier projects, greater chance for detection.

* No superpowers: No bribing entire cities to defect, limited or no bribing military units to defect (poor countries, low culture, units deep in enemy territory, units in poor health, maybe).

* Interesting abilities.

- Someone suggested killing a general: That could be reflected by a "demotion" (from elite to veteran, e.g.).

- Killing a leader: Like a switch to anarchy?

- How about corrupting a resource? Say, a five turn interruption in access to a resource, which might cause treaties to be broken?

- Stealing a resource? A five turn transfer of some resource to the allied country. Harder mission, I would think.

- Agitation is good, but presuming the current culture-flip model is kept, it becomes a viable option to encourage this only if there's some indication of when flipping is going to occur.

A goal to shoot for is making a cold war truly possible and FUN. Spies shoul really add something to the game. They don't really add to Civ 3.

[ok]

[Paddy]

Re: Espionage & Assymetrical Warfare

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Remember the partisan? Well, he was really just another infantry unit in Civ2. In Civ4, it would be nice to build guerilla units with the express purpose of crossing the border and creating mayhem! Think Pakistan versus India here. Perhaps the only net effect of this military unit would be reducing the amount of production on city tiles the guerilla/partisan unit resided in...but you don't have to declare war to do this to your enemy. There are many times I nursed a grudge against the AI and wished I could take some kind of action against him -- especially during peace time.

Yeah bring on such a unit.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by skywalker


It's still utterly ridiculous to have to load your spy into one of your transports and then drop it off next to, say, Washinton.

Why is that utterly ridiculous?

Ever see an action movie where a spy/agent stows away on a ship and jumps into the water when the ship is close to shore?

What about all the examples in history where "peaceful" military delegations to a foreign country clandestinely dropped off spies and other operatives?

Not utterly ridiculous and not even ridiculous. Try likely.

[Kuciwalker]

As ANY spy nowadays is going to get on a PLANE and FLY to their target, unless it's really close, I'd say it's unrealistic in the extreme. The 9-11 hijackers didn't arrive in an Arabian transport

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by POTUS
Yep. Where is Washinton anyways? Can't drop someone off at a non-existant place.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by skywalker
As ANY spy nowadays is going to get on a PLANE and FLY to their target, unless it's really close, I'd say it's unrealistic in the extreme. The 9-11 hijackers didn't arrive in an Arabian transport

And weren't spies...

[Kuciwalker]

They were part of the espionage system - terrorism.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by skywalker
They were part of the espionage system - terrorism.

Its not any more unrealistic for a spy to arrive via ocean liner than it is via plane. However since civilian transport is not modelled at all in Civ, you have the spy riding a military transport, and hopping off in your territory. I hope we can all agree that during the cold war there were plenty of spies, but russia certainly wasn't sending any of its military transports over to drop them off. Not to mention the fact that to avoid detection a spy would probably go through a different intermediary country and probably board one of their transports. Since none of this is modelled in civ, we have to work on a different solution.

Abstraction works, but so does an invisible unit (given proper implementation). The question is which would be more fun to play. I believe the unit would be more fun.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by skywalker
As ANY spy nowadays is going to get on a PLANE and FLY to their target, unless it's really close, I'd say it's unrealistic in the extreme. The 9-11 hijackers didn't arrive in an Arabian transport

What Fosse said. Also, it does seem to me that a "9-11" style attack would not represent much on the civ scale -- other than a declaration of war.

Additionally, being that I work with folks in the industry, I've seen reports detailing seaports, coastal and land borders as the most common entry points for foreigners intending illegal action in America. Airports are too scrutinized - even before 9-11 and especially afterwards.

Specifically, the very poorly regulated industry of martime shipping are the very conduits of drug trade, people trade and other smuggling activities which threaten America today. So, yes. A ship is a very real method of transporting espionage and/or assymetrical warriors.

Now, if you want to incorporate air travel for spies, I think that's very possible - and realistic. Just allow spies to travel from a home airport to any other airport in the world. The pre-requiste being an airport existing or just assume airports exist at every city within a civ that has discovered flight...they would be civilian not military airports a la the city improvement "airport".

When your spy flies into a foreign city, the spy would be undetected at first. Detection of your spy would depend on any number of variables: hostilities, active anti-spy operations, more actions/movement on the part of your spy creating more opportunity to be caught, etc.

Bottom line, a spy should be able to move via land, water and air. And yes, he should be a unit.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Also, it does seem to me that a "9-11" style attack would not represent much on the civ scale -- other than a declaration of war.

Are you nuts? The Dow lost thousands of points, and the NASDAQ lost a third of its value. Billions of dollars of damage was done to New York city. The local transit system plunged into chaos and many jobs lost. The insurance market took a soaking (which affected world-wide coverages) and changed P&C coverage forever.

How should that not be shown in a Civ scale?

[Shogun Gunner]

city disorder, but not much more

Paper losses on nasdaq? Don't think we are tracking that in civ.