Espionage & Assymetrical Warfare

[Shogun Gunner]

Okay...I remember reading this in the other thread.

If I can paraphrase, you are open to units that would facilitate assymetrical warfare. You just don't like the spy unit.

You, however, like the guerilla or a "civil disorder unit" perhaps even special forces type units.

[Kuciwalker]

Right, especially later in the Modern Age. I don't want these units to have "special abilities" (though possibly their presence and/or success could increase the chance of culture flip) but to be pillagers and units that don't face the enemy in open combat. Rather, they ignore the move cost of difficult terrain and can retreat from anything, meaning they are very good at slowly whittling away at a normal attack force that is used to using numbers and/or technology to simply overwhelm the enemy.

[Peter Triggs]

CTP2 had a whole bunch of stealth units (from slavers to cyber ninjas). Hardly anybody liked them but, IMO, they played a useful role in the game: they could be used to provoke you or give you an excuse to attack your neighbour. If your neighbour dislikes you, he will start a coldwar with you using stealth units. As you expel his lawyers etc., his regard falls until he really hates you and starts a hotwar with you. Alternately, you might just get pissed off and start a hotwar with him.

In this way stealth units were somewhat analogous to Civ3's strategic resources: as I understand it, if you need some resource and your neighbour won't trade it to you, you needn't feel all that bad when you attack him. (Contrast this with Civ2 where you often found yourself playing as a naked megalomaniac.)

So, the question is: is there any place for this type of unit in Civ4? I don't mean the specific units that were in CTP2, but rather some sort of unit that you and the AI could use provocatively but without being in a state of war. A 'terrorist' comes immediately to mind but this might be too sensitive (and too provocative).

[Stefu]

I like Optimizer's idea of being able to cause strikes and others in areas with your citizens. However, there should be a special unit for this, call it a Subverter or something, which can establish a revolutionary cell in a city. This revolutionary cell can then be used for strikes, sabotage and revolutions. How much establishing a cell would cost would depend on how many people of your nationality are in a city and how pissed off they are.

If religions are included, then revolutionary cells could also be established in cities which share your state religion. A communist state would have an added benefit of being able to establish revolutionary cells in any city. And there would be some means for a player to root out these revolutionary cells.

Hey, more that I think of this idea, more I like it. Yeah! It would certainly change the gameplay in a good way, especially for communist states, who'd have a whole new tactic - if the evil capitalists thwart the military ambitions of the rodina, subvert them from the inside!

A more traditional "spy" unit should be included for stealing technology, spying, and such operations.

No special units beyond that, though. I agree that CtP went way overboard.

[Shogun Gunner]

Yes, CTP went too far....I will once again point to the lawyer as a unit I absolutely hated.

I also really think that Optimizer has a good idea here....

So once again, I'll ask. This is not a {List -- xxxx} type thread. Do we need to start one, or does this really fall in another existing thread (government, combat???)

I love subverting from the inside

[Stefu]

I'm not really happy with the name Subverter, now that I think of it. Is there a better name? "Agitator" and "Revolutionary Agent" are possibilities, but I'm sure there's a term that describes *exactly* what I'm thinking of, but I can't remember it...

The espionage screen should have information about all the cities you have revolutionary cells in, and some kind of easy way to cause mass havoc. ("All members of the French Liberation Front in German cities go on strike NOW!") This would, of course, cost a lot of money and if the Germans find out they'd be pissed off, but it would be a nifty way to stop the German spaceship project on it's tracks or just cripple the empire. (The way I'm envisioning it, going on a strike would not only mean that all the projects in the city stop, but also that the resources in the city's zone of control become temporarily unavailable. Nihihihihi...)

[Shogun Gunner]

Is it something like "insurgent"?

I would love to see both the highly trained and specialized commando unit (Green Beret, Navy SEALS, Delta Force, etc) and the untrained (Partisan, Guerilla, Insurgent, Freedom Fighter) in the game. However, not too many units, or too powerful. These should a role, capability and the effect should be on the proper scale.

These units have traditionally taken very difficult and dangerous assignments where it was necessary to remain undetected (hence precluding large unit operations). If these units were available they could destroy roads/railroads; perhaps negate fortification enhancements for one turn; freeze a military unit from moving for one turn; ground an air unit for one turn...I'm sure we could think of a bunch of other ideas here.

One of the main missions of the Green Berets is to work behind enemy lines, build relationships with indigenous people, train and arm the populace into small units. This could fit in with Stefu's revolutionary cell concept.

[POTUS]

Spies per se are not good, and should not be used, but I like the idea of representing their abilities.

[Shogun Gunner]

bump...hoping Stefu remembered what he wanted to call that unit...

[Kuciwalker]

I think that the only units that exist on the map should be combat units, settlers, workers, and transports (which pretty much fall under combat units). Anything else should be abstracted.

[TheBirdMan]

I using all kind of spies units and other assymetrical warfare units. And I would of couse embrase any possibility to use agitators and stuff like that.

Making a sleeping cell in some of your neighbours cities, that goes active - causes unhappiness, falling production.... what ever - when a command is given is just.....

Such cells should be really sleeping, meaning that your opponent should NOT get informed of anything by default. There might be a chance say 2-3% every turn for discovery and following "bad standing" by the offended.

[Stefu]

Not a 2-3% chance every turn, that's too high. What I'm envisioning is that, basically, the Revolutionary Agent (my current preferred term for this unit) can establish a small cell, which can only conduct some basic sabotage and city investigation. Through use of money (or possibly through natural growth which depends on the size and unhappiness of the possibly revolutionary community) it can grow into a medium cell, which organized strikes and such, and a large cell, which can do revolutions and other such operations. The chance of the cell being found depends on it's size, and there would be means for the other player to find out about it (one of spy's operations could be infiltrating these revolutionary cells, there could be a 'martial law' option which makes busting the cells easier, etc.)

[LDiCesare]

The original MOO (1) espionage options was quite good: Spend money to get 1 or more spies in a given civs, and give them missions (hiding, sabotage, steal techs...). A very slider-based approach, but with individual spies.

I'd like the option to attack another country without being at war: Using mercenaries, raiding parties... This would be a state of armed peace, where you can still trade with the other country, but do some damage to them. A weaker country would probably allow for some raiding in exchange of some trade rather than an all-out war of conquest. This would require raiding to give benefits to the raider, like money for instance.

[DarkCloud]

I'm pro-spy unit

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Possible Actions

Bribe Unit
Bribe Town
Assassinate General (as per Shogun: Total War) this could cause a morale lowering in the army... or if morale isn't represented, then it could cause the attack and defense to lower.
Assassinate Ruler (as per Shogun: Total War) this could cause the nation's tax revenues to decline because of chaos and corruption to increase until a heir assumes the throne.
Poison Water Supply Reduce city population
Plant Nuclear Agent Nuke the city. Possible warcrime.
Plant Chemical Agent Chem the city. Possible Warcrime. (less effective than nukes but costs less)
Plant BioAgent Bio the city. Possible warcrime. (Less effective than chemical and more likley to get caught. Costs less)
Steal Technology
Establish Embassy
Spy on City
Destroy Buildings
Sabotague Production
Incite Riot
Incite Change of Government
Decrease Productivity
Steal from Treasury
Destroy Railroad
Mine Road (Place mines on roads, railroads- that explode and damage units that run into them)
Call Airstrike (Bomber's damage is improved when someone on the ground can direct their fire)

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Anyone have any other ideas?

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LDiCaesar- I love your idea about mercenaries and pirates!

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Assassinate General (as per Shogun: Total War) this could cause a morale lowering in the army... or if morale isn't represented, then it could cause the attack and defense to lower.
Assassinate Ruler (as per Shogun: Total War) this could cause the nation's tax revenues to decline because of chaos and corruption to increase until a heir assumes the throne.

DarkCloud,

Great list. I had a double take when reading your post.... I thought to myself, "Wow, I'm pretty smart..." Then I realized it was from a game called "Shogun"

Maybe renaming the "Spy" unit would help. Or better yet, a set of different units. Some of these actions are "007-like" but others are special operations. I think a specific unit (or units) makes sense because these small unit actions have significant impact on the battlefield. They should be included.

Spy - traditional James Bond stuff
Green Beret - infilitration attacks (assassinations, directing bomber runs, etc from DarkCloud's list)
Delta Force - anti terrorism (attacks the Revolutionary Agent)
Revolutionary Agent (Stefu's idea) for terrorism cells

Just a preliminary list of units connected to actions they could carry out. I could see some overlap as a spy and green beret unit could assisinate, but perhaps one is better than the other depending on function.

One issue is making these units hidden/visible under the right circumstances. The game structure would have to change to allow stacking of these type of units in enemy military stacks or enemy cities. Not impossible, just a change that's needed. This would definitely contribute to "the fog of war" which helps authenticity IMHO.

Good thread going here....