The List - Combat

[LDiCesare]

About stack limits:
It's possible to add a supply value to squares, value which is increased by the existence of (friendly) roads towards a city/base/headquarter. If you exceed the supply value, your troops start taking damage.
This would let supply lines exist as an abstraction: If the shortest path to a firendly city was 3 turns but suddenly becomes 5 because a hostile unit just sat on one of your roads, then available supplies drop from (f.e.) 5 to 3 and your stack of 5 units start taking damage which will stop only when 3 units are left or more supplies are available. (this is more or less what happens in the game Dominions II, but the pathfinding is easier in that game than it'd be in Civ).

[lajzar]

As I pointed out earlier, North Korea* has what amounts to a stack of 100 uits in a single tile. Since it evidently isn't building 50+ units every year, it stands to reason that the supply limit for any given tile is probabluy more than would be useful as a game mechanic. I suspect DOminions II's rule was more a game balance mechanic than a serious attempt at realism. The number of units that can live on a single tile is surprisingly large.

* As a percentage of total population, North korea has the world's biggest army.

[Fosse]

But lajzar, isn't that making huge assumptions about what a Civ 4 unit will represent?

Just teasing... but it bears consideration.

[Kramsib]

AMBUSH BONUS

We already know about the terrain defensive bonus, but I was thinking about an AMBUSH BONUS AS A SPECIAL ABILITY.

Ambush bonus can be a special ability for Guerrilla type units, under this point of view, a guerrilla type unit gets the defensive bonus of the starting tile as an ambush bonus against the other unit.

e.g. A guerrilla attacking from a forest gets 100 % of ambush bonus in its attack.

EDIT

I have just notice that my idea is very similar to aaglo's.

[Kramsib]

Under a military Alliance combined with Right of Passage, allied units should be able to be on the same tile.

Supposing, English and French are Allied, English units should be able to occupy the same tiles the French units, even enter French cities where they can recover or help to defend them.

In addition, it would be good to be able to transport allies of different countries in the same ship.

I know this is difficult for the IA, but it is a great advance in Multiplayer.

[wrylachlan]

Re: AMBUSH BONUS

Originally posted by Kramsib
We already know about the terrain defensive bonus, but I was thinking about an AMBUSH BONUS AS A SPECIAL ABILITY.

Ambush bonus can be a special ability for Guerrilla type units, under this point of view, a guerrilla type unit gets the defensive bonus of the starting tile as an ambush bonus against the other unit.

e.g. A guerrilla attacking from a forest gets 100 % of ambush bonus in its attack.

EDIT

I have just notice that my idea is very similar to aaglo's.

I think the best way to work ambushes would be to give the attacker a bonus when the defender can't see him at the beginning of the turn.

Then you could give certain units invisibility in certain terrains.

i.e. Your scout on the mountain sees an enemy swordsman 2 tiles away from your Javelin Thrower in the Jungle. The Javelin Thrower (H)ides which makes him invisible. The Swordsman moves to the tile next to the Javelin Thrower, at which point the Javelin Thrower attacks. Since the Swordsman couldn't see the Javelin Thrower at the start of the turn, the JT gets a bonus.

This makes visibility/scouting more important since you have to know the enemy is coming in order to (H)ide.

[lajzar]

Being able to stack allied units from different civs was possible in SMAC iirc. It really shouldn't be difficult to repeat something that has already been written, especially since the development team is from the same company(?), so they'll have access to the relevant source code.

Using transports from allies would be more complicated to implement, but if the ideas in the various maritime manifestos is implemented, it would not be necessary.

That ambush bonus is interesting, but I have a feeling it could be very unbalancing, especially as attack factors are typically higher, so that terrain multiplier suddenly becomes a lot more powerful than if it were applied to the defence factor as normal. Perhaps instead of directly multiplying teh attack factor, the attack is instead increaed by whatever teh defence would have been increased by with that terrain multiplier.

Example: Tank (10-5-3) with ambush flag, attacking from a mountain (x2 terrain bonus). If it were defending, the defence factor would become 10 with the terrain modifer, an increase of 5 points. So the modified attack factor is 15 when ambushing from the forest. Without this, it would be 20, which would almost certainly stomp anything within the same tech era.

A2 = A + ((D * terr) - D)

A2 - modified attack factor
A - base attack factor
terr - terrain modifer

[Kramsib]

Perhaps we should limit it, I mean, ambush bonus is for defensive wars only, that is to say, it takes place only in your own territory.

It is supposed you know your territory better than your enemy, so your guerrilla type units get this bonus only in your territory.

Other alternatives that I have thought.

Extend ambush bonus to all units, but they receive only 50 % of the defensive bonus of the tile they attack from. (Guerrila type gets 100 % as a special ability).

With this 50 % we reduce an abusive attack modifier.

[lajzar]

If we extend teh ambush bonus to all units at half strength and give "ambush flagged" units a full strength bonus, we may as well just halve the terrain modifers instead; it would have exactly the sme effect and reduce the calculations required.

I think you're on the right track in saying the ambush should only apply in your own territory.

[Kramsib]

What about setting the ambush bonus as the result of the difference between the defense bonus of the starting tile and the targeted tile?.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Kramsib
What about setting the ambush bonus as the result of the difference between the defense bonus of the starting tile and the targeted tile?.

In your view what would make some one walk into an "ambush"? I mean if there isn't some sort of invisibility, then why doesn't the enemy just avoid the ambush and go around??? I think that invisibility has to play some sort of role, as well as the unit doing the ambush not moving on the turn before.

Maybe a the simplest way to do it is to have guerilla units that don't move for a turn in friendly territory turn invisible. You see them as a silouette or something, but the enemy doesn't see them at all. Thus the enemy marches right next to the invisible guerilla, who then attacks, getting the "ambush bonus".

Alternatively, the "ambush" could happen only if the enemy tries to move onto the tile with the invisible unit. The Guerilla then defends with an additional bonus.

Any way you slice it, though, I don't see how an ambush can be implemented without somehow preventing the enemy from seeing it coming (thus invisibility) otherwise it's not really an ambush...

[LDiCesare]

I suspect DOminions II's rule was more a game balance mechanic than a serious attempt at realism. The number of units that can live on a single tile is surprisingly large.

Definitely. But the point is that, as a game mechanics, it works.
North Korea supports its army on its territory, but could probably not support it out of its territory considering its very special brainwashing regime. Considering its inability to povide electricity to its cities and other things like that, you could say that supporting such an army ruins the country.

[Awsric Armitage]

Definitely. But the point is that, as a game mechanics, it works.
North Korea supports its army on its territory, but could probably not support it out of its territory considering its very special brainwashing regime. Considering its inability to povide electricity to its cities and other things like that, you could say that supporting such an army ruins the country.

Very true. Most of the country is in shambles and it is only a matter of time before they get pissed off and some military leader leads the army in a coup. This is inevitable as most of the Army in Korea are soldiers only for the privledges that it gives them of better food and living conditions; however, these soldiers also have families which are poverty stricken by their governments policies. They while well fed and treated are not without human hearts and depressing a soldiers family is not a very good troop morale motivator. It is only a matter of time before a stronger military leader takes control and returns some of the international prestige necessary to releave the wide-spread suffering of that nations depressed peoples. If the common peoples of North Korea knew of the way the rest of the world lives they would demand nothing less.

Enough geopolitics.

The ambushes system as I see it would be another new tag for units like the present fortify tag. Requiring at least one turn or several depending on terrain to prepare the ambush site in either friendly or enemy territory. Guerilla warfare units usually do not pay much attention to national boudaries and when the time scale is involved trained units can ambush in any terrain they have been trained to do so in as a year in the field is more than adequate time to acquaint yourself with the environmental surroundings. Once prepared the site must be manned which would be the invisble ambush setting unit once the ambush has been set. Attacking out of the ambush site is not realistic in my opinion as ambush sites are normally uni-directional not every directional and mostly only occur in the advantageous terrain not out of it into the surrounding countryside. Amushes should be allowed only in Forests, Jungles, and Mountains and once set must have the enemy unit actually enter the tile to be ambushed. Otherwise we are talking about ambush surprise and firepower on a force projection scale which is a totally different aspect of warfare entirely getting into stealth units and ZOCs. Projecting ambush power should be limited to only the tile that the ambush is set in and if the player wants to invest units into a line of multiple ambush sites then fine. One unit per ambush site to form each tile along the line and man it once a unit moves the ambush status is removed just like moving after fortifying. Thus to maintain ambush status the unit(s) must remain motionless for not only the intial time period to set the ambush but until the ambush is sprung by any other unit entering that tile. No force projection by ambushing forces this is something for attack choppers and stealth aircraft with stand-off ranged weapons not foot units in the bush in Indian country.

[lajzar]

Originally posted by Awsric Armitage


...

Enough geopolitics.

Agreed. N Korea was of course an extreme example, but any modern nation can comfortably stack more units in a single tile than would be realistic to restrict as a game mechanic. I believe Desert Storm involved a coalition stack of 500,000 soldiers. How many units would that be? And in a desert no less, which everyone says should have a particularly strict stack limit.

The ambushes system as I see it would be another new tag for units like the present fortify tag. ... Attacking out of the ambush site is not realistic in my opinion as ambush sites are normally.

Congratulations! You have just redescribed the basic fortify command. Overall, I think giving units a bonus based on the tile the are attacking from is wrong anyway. The battle is taking place in the defenders' tile.

An ambush in real terms involves the attacker going for a fortified defender where the defender could not be seen. So how about the following...

Certain units (probably unique units, or possibly a benefit gained as a result of getting elite status or something. Shouldn't be too common though) are invisible in certain terrains. The classic example would be submarines in ocean. If a unit is revealed by an enemy moving into the tile, the ambush is triggered.

In 1:1 combat - the ambushing (ie defender) fights with the higher of attack or defence factor, and the usual fortify bonus is increased by an extra 50%.

In stacked combat - all units which can ambush get a set number of bombard attacks, then proceed as usual with stacked combat.

[Awsric Armitage]

Congratulations! You have just redescribed the basic fortify command. Overall, I think giving units a bonus based on the tile the are attacking from is wrong anyway. The battle is taking place in the defenders' tile.

An ambush in real terms involves the attacker going for a fortified defender where the defender could not be seen. So how about the following...

Certain units (probably unique units, or possibly a benefit gained as a result of getting elite status or something. Shouldn't be too common though) are invisible in certain terrains. The classic example would be submarines in ocean. If a unit is revealed by an enemy moving into the tile, the ambush is triggered.

If you would care to re-read my post completely before bashing it you would see this is exactly what it proposed.