Huge is Too Small

[DougM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by Willem


Not always, towards the end of the game I get periods of lag and jerkiness. However that clears up for awhile if I quit the game and restart. It could be symptoms of a memory leak, though I don't know enough about that to comment informatively.

Oh the game definitely leaks memory, and that's another sure fire way to get a crash sooner or later. I'd definitely say that leaking memory somewhere in a calculation would be a very quick way to cause a crash when scaling up to a larger size map (and more intense use of whichever calculation is leaking memory), and I guess as I think about it, that's a pretty likely explanation for the sort of problem behavior you're seeing.

So now that I think about this possibility, I bet what you're running into is that you play in some way differently than I do, and you hit the memory leak more often. Maybe you look at some screen I don't, or you use more of some kind of military unit than I do, and so you're tripping over some bit of bad code over and over that I'm just lucky enough to avoid.

Sad thing is ... the tools for detecting and fixing memory leaks are so good these days ... they really shouldn't have such problems.

[Vince278]

I have a 2000x1000 earth map for Call to Power 2. What would I need to run something of that size in Civ4? Can Atlas build it? (yes, I realize the question borders on the ridiculous) Finally, what would be a good minimum for a huge to titan maps (in RAM and video card)?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Vince278
I have a 2000x1000 earth map for Call to Power 2. What would I need to run something of that size in Civ4?

An IBM mainframe?

A default Huge map is 128 x 80 and you need close to a top of the line computer in order to run that. I doubt what you're suggesting is even possible on a standard personal computer.

[Junuxx]

Originally posted by Vince278
I have a 2000x1000 earth map for Call to Power 2. What would I need to run something of that size in Civ4? Can Atlas build it? (yes, I realize the question borders on the ridiculous) Finally, what would be a good minimum for a huge to titan maps (in RAM and video card)?

Currently, Atlas is limited to 400x400 just because I thought that would be enough. I'll experiment a bit with it this weekend. If I can get it to work, I might post a 1000x1000 or 2000x1000 map for you, but don't expect you can actually play it. No way

On your second question: Atlas gives a memory recommendation, but it's just a rough estimate: 128 MB RAM per 500 land squares, but at least 512. I'd like to improve this estimate and to include a recommended video mem, but I need testers to do so...
Edit: You have to add some 128MB for Windows XP, and additional MBs for other background applications like firewall/virus scanner
Edit: This is an estimate for the requirements near the end of the game, with lots of units, cities and improvements.

Some examples of the current estimate:
- 50*50, 100% land = 2500 land tiles --> 2500/500 * 128 = 640 MB RAM

- 128 * 80, 35% land (approx. Huge Terra) = 3500 land tiles --> 3500/500 * 128 = 896 MB RAM

- 400 * 400, 20% land = 32000 land tiles --> 8 GB RAM..

- 2000*1000, 20% land = 400.000 land tiles --> 100 GB RAM

So I think I must agree with Willem, you'll need an IBM mainframe.

[Vince278]

Thank-you very much. I've been getting ready to buy a new computer and I wanted a feel for the RAM I'd need. I don't think 100GB is possible yet ( ) but maybe 2-4GB is.

What was nice about the 2000x1000 map is that it is "life-sized" or in other words the city radius was about the size of an actual city radius. I didn't think I'd be able to do it in Civ4 (unless I got my old Cray back ).

[Willem]

Originally posted by Vince278
Thank-you very much. I've been getting ready to buy a new computer and I wanted a feel for the RAM I'd need. I don't think 100GB is possible yet ( ) but maybe 2-4GB is.

From what I've been reading, people who play on Huge maps typically have at least 2 gig of RAM.

[Junuxx]

I have 1 GB RAM and a Radeon 9600XT with 128 MB, and (since patch 1.52) no problems whatsoever with huge maps (128x80).

[Commander Bello]

I am playing on gigantic maps (55*35) and at around 1400 my system uses 1.7GB of total memory.
WinXP Home SP2, 1.5 GB RAM, ATI Radeon 9600 Sapphire GC (256MB RAM)
ZoneAlarm, Norton AV, Firefox as other programs running.
If I close the program, system useage goes done to ~450MB, so we may assume that a rough 1.3 GB is used then.

(Swap file of 2.5 GB on second HD in its own partition, to make the slow-downs less painful.

[Junuxx]

@Commander Bello:
These gigantic maps you play, what map script do you use with them? Continents? Terra? Any estimate on the land percentage? I guess it's over 75% water...

[Commander Bello]

i play with continents settings, resulting in most times three different continents and may be 2 - 3 (small) islands.

And yes, water coverage of my world may be around 66 - 75%

[Junuxx]

Originally posted by Junuxx
Currently, Atlas is limited to 400x400 just because I thought that would be enough. I'll experiment a bit with it this weekend. If I can get it to work, I might post a 1000x1000 or 2000x1000 map for you, but don't expect you can actually play it. No way

Well, I'm not going to post such a map. I made a 1600x1600 map, but it's over 200MBs big!

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Junuxx
Well, I'm not going to post such a map. I made a 1600x1600 map, but it's over 200MBs big!

Wow

Have you tried loading the map?

[Son of moose]

Junuxx:

I made a 1600x1600 map, but it's over 200MBs big!

Wow!!! That is singularly impressive.

The biggest map that I have managed to create for the AoM 2 mod of CTP 2 (with 1 Gig of memory) is a 1160 x 2320 map. This certainly provides one with a LOT of space for creating a really interesting map.

I am currently toying with the idea of trying to upgrade my aging system .... but it would need a HUMUNGUS upgrade to be able to play CIV with AoM-sized maps.

This (imho) is my greatest disappointment with CIV ....

[DougM]

well, one can hope

That maybe in the next patch / expansion pack that they'll improve the memory efficiency of the maps (and of course we'll all hope for faster gameplay in the later eras as well).

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Junuxx
Well, I'm not going to post such a map. I made a 1600x1600 map, but it's over 200MBs big!

What did you use to build it?

SoM: Good to see you still working on the big maps. My efforts to clean up that CtP map died when my PC couldn't handle the constant updates. I also am considering getting a new system.